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Harald Henkel10/4/99

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Hello everybody. Franz Gnaedinger wrote in some postings: > Wehrmacht soldier and SS-member Juergen Spanuth had his chance, > and he could publish all his crap. > Juergen Spanuth was a Nazi, … This is simply a LIE which Franz Gnaedinger cannot prov

Hello everybody.

Franz Gnaedinger wrote in some postings:

> Wehrmacht soldier and SS-member Juergen Spanuth had his chance,
> and he could publish all his crap.

> Juergen Spanuth was a Nazi, …

This is simply a LIE which Franz Gnaedinger cannot prove.

Of course Spanuth was a Wehrmacht soldier.
Almost any german man was in the Wehrmacht and had to fight in WW-II.
But Spanuth was never in the SS.
Insted one of his “strongest” opponents (Prof. Gripp) has been in the
SA.

Only because Spanuth cites some “scientist” that worked for the
SS-Ahnenerbe is not enough
to say he was a Nazi or he was in the SS himself.

By the way, Spanuth lost three (all?) brothers in the war and was
injured himself.

> he had no idea of archaeology,

Spauth studied besides theology also archaeology, ancient history and
ancient languages.

> and what he wrote was ideology instead.

I didn’t find any.
He doesn’t write of a supperior race like the Nazis had done (or do).
He writes about a the northern peoples, who were forced by catastrophies
to leave their native land and
settled down in the countries arround the eastern mediterrenean sea. In
those countries
the population was also reduced to 1 to 10% of the former by the same
catastrophies,
so there wasn’t much defense, when the “Atlanteans” came.

> He believed that
> Basileia = Atlantis lay in front of Helgoland and owed
> it’s wealth to orichalcum = amber (Bernstein).

That this area “owed it’s wealth to amber” is absolutely proven by many
findings in stone graves
and the amber roads on which the amber was sent to trade into other
countries in the south,
even down to Egypt.

> oreichalkos / orichalcum  =  amber ??

Well from all the claims he made, this was (almost) the only one that
wasn’t
fought by Prof. Gripp (the SA-member) and his friends –
and this although he “mistranslates” one part of Critias (116c)
where he replaces “chalkos” by “oreichalkos”.

> Let us have a look what the Greek geographer Strabon (around
> 64 BC – 21 AD) wrote on oreichalkos (my translation):

>  Near Andeira there is a stone that becomes iron when burned,
>  and then, when heated together with a certain earth and
>  with an addition of copper gives a mixture that is called
>  oreichalkos by some.

> Hence oreichalkos was brass, an alloy of copper and zinc.

1.
Strabo was arround 400 years after Platon, 600 years after Solon.
It is not sure, that the word “oreichalkos” which means today “brass”
used to mean “brass”
when Platon wrote his dialogs or Solon heard the story by the egypt
priests.

You have to keep in mind, how the Atlantis-report was written down.

Captured atlantean soldiers told all this about their native country to
the egypts who wrote it down.
But as the priest said to Solon, they didn’t even know what kind of
material this was,
but it was very desired for by the people in former times – almost like
gold.

This is surely true for amber – which came only from the North Sea near
Holgoland in that time.

So, it’s very unlikely that the word “Oreichalkos” Platon used was the
correct one.

Of course the Greek at Platons time knew amber, which they called
“elektrum”,
but Platon could’t know that a material which the egypts didn’t know
what it was, was amber.

2.
It is absolutley not sure that, what Strabo describes is the process to
make brass.

Here another translation (from www.perseus.tuft.edu, the
Tufts-University):

“There is a stone in the neighborhood of Andeira which, when burned,
becomes iron,
and then, when heated in a furnace with a certain earth, distils
mock-silver;
and this, with the addition of copper, makes the “mixture,”
as it is called, which by some is called “mountaincopper.””

Iron was very well known at Strabos time.
But it’s not sure that the greek word “pseudarguron”,
translated as mock-silver really means (and meant) zinc.

3.
As far as I know, brass isn’t known in ancient times.
Are there any findings of peaces made of brass like the findings made of
copper and bronze
that date before 600 BC ?

4.
Hesiod (about 8-7th cent. BC) wrote in “The shield of Herakles”
(translation source see 2.):

“So he said, and put upon his legs greaves of shining bronze,
the splendid gift of Hephaestus.”

The word translated as “of shining bronze” is “oreichalkoio”.

So he (Herakles) tried to protect his legs with “graves” made by brass ?

That’s stupid.
Brass is a “soft” alloy that tends to corrode on the surface (so it’s
not shining very long).

5.
At least one ring was found, made of melted amber dating to the bronze
age,
which shows that the north people knew very well, how to melt amber.

So it is very likely that they were also able to use it as some kind of
paint on their walls,
by heating the amber in oil.

> Platon wrote in Critias that oreichalkos was a metal, and that
> the Atlantians coated the whole circumference of the outer wall
> with copper (chalkos), the one of the inner wall with tin, and
> the acropolis with brass (oreichalkos) — meaning that they
> coated the walls with a mixture of plaster and metal powder.

6.
I never heard that a “mixture of plaster and metal powder” was used as a
wall paint in ancient times.
Is there any proof for this claim ?

7.
Agin:
> Platon wrote in Critias that oreichalkos was a metal,

This is really a stupid statement, that shows that the writer didn’t
read Platon carefully.

Platon writes, that oreichalkos could be digged out of the earth on
Atlantis/Basileia – like metals (esp. copper).
He DIDN’T write that oreichalkos was a metal – nowhere !

8.
> Even Nazi loon Juergen Spanuth, so to speak the Graham Hancock
> of the 3. Reich, should have known that amber ain’t a metal!

Spanuth began his research on Atlantis AFTER the 3. Reich ended !

9.
> The mineral Aurichalcit contains copper and zinc.

Yes, but as far as I know, it’s hardly possible to get brass out of
this.

If anybody has any information on the production and use of brass and
“mixtures of plaster and metal powder” before 600 BC (Solon), please let
me know.

Harald Henkel

P.S.
Sorry for my bad english.
If something is not understandable, please let me know.

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cir…@access.ch10/4/99

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In article <37F85325…@REPLY.DE>, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> tries to make me believe that oreichalkos / oreichalcum / aurichalkit = amber Very well. If the metal oreichalkos = brass and the mineral aurichalcit containing tin and copper can be

In article <37F85325…@REPLY.DE>,
  Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
tries to make me believe that

  oreichalkos / oreichalcum / aurichalkit = amber

Very well. If the metal oreichalkos = brass and the mineral
aurichalcit containing tin and copper can be amber it can
be anything else as well, for example

  oreichalkos / aurchalcit = cuckoo clock

This proves that the Atlantians have been Swiss!

Now will I get famous for having found this wonderful truth?

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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Harald Henkel10/4/99

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Hello everybody, hello Mr. Gnaedinger. cir…@access.ch wrote:

Hello everybody, hello Mr. Gnaedinger.

cir…@access.ch wrote:

> In article <37F85325…@REPLY.DE>,
>   Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
> tries to make me believe that
>
>   oreichalkos / oreichalcum / aurichalkit = amber
>
> Very well. If the metal oreichalkos = brass and the mineral
> aurichalcit containing tin and copper can be amber it can
> be anything else as well, for example
>
>   oreichalkos / aurchalcit = cuckoo clock
>
> This proves that the Atlantians have been Swiss!
>
> Now will I get famous for having found this wonderful truth?

No. You will get famous for being a biased stupido.

You don’t answer any of my claims and questions on brass and amber.
You just repeat your stupid claim which won’t become true by this.

If you would have read my posting carefully you would see that there is
no good reason for the claim that Platon really meant brass when he
wrote oreichalkos.
The egypt priest didn’t know what the material was, how should Platon
know ???

Can you proove that brass was produced and used 600 BC and before ?
Can you proove that “mixtures of plaster and metal powder” was produced
and used 600 BC and before ?

And, by the way, can you proove your claim that Spanuth was a Nazi and
SS-member ?

None of those you can proove,  I guess !

Harald Henkel

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Miguel Aguirre10/4/99

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cir…@access.ch wrote in message <7ta3b9$qi9$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>…


cir…@access.ch wrote in message <7ta3b9$qi9$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>…

– show quoted text –


>In article <37F85325…@REPLY.DE>,
>  Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
>tries to make me believe that
>
>  oreichalkos / oreichalcum / aurichalkit = amber
>
>Very well. If the metal oreichalkos = brass and the mineral
>aurichalcit containing tin and copper can be amber it can
>be anything else as well, for example
>
>  oreichalkos / aurchalcit = cuckoo clock
>
>This proves that the Atlantians have been Swiss!
>
>Now will I get famous for having found this wonderful truth?
>
>Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.

Good to answer to you from time to time. According to the Greeks the
Tartesians fo Spain (just outside Gibraltar) were reach in gold, silver and
orichalkon. The area of the Tartesians is present day Huelva that was (and
still is) very reach in metals but there is not there any amber whatsoever.
So this support your point that orichalkos was some type of methalic mixture
and not amber.

Show trimmed content

Eric Stevens10/5/99

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On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 09:11:33 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> wrote: —- snip —-

On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 09:11:33 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
wrote:

 —- snip —-

>Captured atlantean soldiers told all this about their native country to
>the egypts who wrote it down.
>But as the priest said to Solon, they didn’t even know what kind of
>material this was,
>but it was very desired for by the people in former times – almost like
>gold.

By this time, they were probably several generations of travel away
from what had been their home land and details of what they knew of
the past would be becoming blurred.


>
>This is surely true for amber – which came only from the North Sea near
>Holgoland in that time.
>
>So, it’s very unlikely that the word “Oreichalkos” Platon used was the
>correct one.
>
>Of course the Greek at Platons time knew amber, which they called
>”elektrum”,

That’s interesting. Its usually held to be a mixture of gold and
silver. Can I ask your source for the statement that the Greeks
applied the term to amber?

    ——- snip ——–


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Eric Stevens10/5/99

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On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:58:24 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> wrote: >Can you proove that brass was produced and used 600 BC and before ?

On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:58:24 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
wrote:

>Can you proove that brass was produced and used 600 BC and before ?


>Can you proove that “mixtures of plaster and metal powder” was produced
>and used 600 BC and before ?

My understanding is that the first production of paint containing
metal powder occurred as a result of the accidental inclusion of an
aluminium ball in a paint-mill in an American paint maker’s plant,
about 1928. needless to say, the car was the hit of the NY motor show!
Prior that event, the idea had not occurred to anybody. I would be
surprised if that was the case if plaster containing metal powder had
been known for millenia.


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

Show trimmed content

cir…@access.ch10/5/99

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In article <QgL5Nx53avw2La…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

In article <QgL5Nx53avw2La…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

> My understanding is that the first production of paint containing
> metal powder occurred as a result of the accidental inclusion of an
> aluminium ball in a paint-mill in an American paint maker’s plant,
> about 1928. needless to say, the car was the hit of the NY motor show!
> Prior that event, the idea had not occurred to anybody. I would be
> surprised if that was the case if plaster containing metal powder had
> been known for millenia.
>
> Eric Stevens

What about the gilded floor of the palace at Pi-Ramesse on
the Nile Delta? A piece of that floor was found recently,
and another alleged fairy tale of archaeology turned out
to be true … Alas, you read old books of pseudo-archaeology
instead of scientific articles and books by true archaeologists
who do actual fieldwork. You dream of an Atlantis in the German
Sea for which there ain’t one single grain of evidence while
you ignore the real findings of present-day archaeology.

How sad.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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cir…@access.ch10/5/99

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In article <37F89660…@REPLY.DE>, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> called me a liar and a biased stupido I don’t care if Juergen Spanuth was an official member of the NSDAP and/or SS, if he was a secret member of the NSDAP and/or SS, or if he stood o

In article <37F89660…@REPLY.DE>,
  Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>

called me a liar and a biased stupido

I don’t care if Juergen Spanuth was an official member of
the NSDAP and/or SS, if he was a secret member of the NSDAP
and/or SS, or if he stood on no such a list. He worked for
the Nazis, and he propagated a Nazi phantasma. That makes
him de facto a Nazi. You can go on calling me a liar and
a stupido, that won’t change a thing. Oreichalkos remains
mountain-copper = brass, and aurichalcit remains a mineral
containing copper and zinc. Not even calling me 5 names
will turn oreichalkos / aurichalcit into amber. And you
may call me 10 names, that won’t make Germans out of the
ancient Greeks. FOR THEY HAVE BEEN SWISS! E.g. Aristotle
whose real name was Heinrich Stoffel – yet in the course
of the Dorian sound shift Heinrich became (French) Henri
and finally Ari while Stoffel became the affix -stotle:

  Heinrich – (French) Henri – Ari

  Stoffel – …stotle

  Heinrich Stoffel – Henri Stoffel – Aristotle

THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SWISS!

  ­čÖü wrong name     ­čÖé true name
  ————————————
  Imhotep           (Hans) Imoberdorf
  Sneferu           (Peter) Schnebeli
  Khufu             (Willy) Kufer
  Ramesses          (Rolf) Ramseier
  Plato             (Emma) von Planta

If oreichalkos / aurichalcit = amber, all is true.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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Harald Henkel10/5/99

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Hi Eric. Eric Stevens wrote:

Hi Eric.

Eric Stevens wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 13:58:24 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
> wrote:
>
> >Can you proove that brass was produced and used 600 BC and before ?
> >Can you proove that “mixtures of plaster and metal powder” was produced
> >and used 600 BC and before ?
>
> My understanding is that the first production of paint containing
> metal powder occurred as a result of the accidental inclusion of an
> aluminium ball in a paint-mill in an American paint maker’s plant,
> about 1928. needless to say, the car was the hit of the NY motor show!
> Prior that event, the idea had not occurred to anybody. I would be
> surprised if that was the case if plaster containing metal powder had
> been known for millenia.

Thanks a lot for this information.

With kind regards,
Harald Henkel

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Harald Henkel10/5/99

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Hi Eric. Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> schrieb im Beitrag <k==4N=p6GzCvLtLSG…@4ax.com>…

Hi Eric.

Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> schrieb im Beitrag
<k==4N=p6GzCvLtLSG…@4ax.com>…


> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 09:11:33 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
> wrote:
>
>  —- snip —-
>
> >Captured atlantean soldiers told all this about their native country to
> >the egypts who wrote it down.
> >But as the priest said to Solon, they didn’t even know what kind of
> >material this was,
> >but it was very desired for by the people in former times – almost like
> >gold.
>
> By this time, they were probably several generations of travel away
> from what had been their home land

That’s probably true.

> and details of what they knew of
> the past would be becoming blurred.

Sorry, Eric, but I don’t think THIS is true.
If this would be true, then no culture on earth would have survived without
written word.

Besides it is not unlikely that they kept connection by ship to their home
land at least until the big catasrophies, which – according to Spanuth –
happend around 1200 BC – the time they tried to conquer Egypt from three
sides (West, North and East).

> >
> >This is surely true for amber – which came only from the North Sea near
> >Holgoland in that time.
> >
> >So, it’s very unlikely that the word “Oreichalkos” Platon used was the
> >correct one.
> >
> >Of course the Greek at Platons time knew amber, which they called
> >”elektrum”,
>
> That’s interesting. Its usually held to be a mixture of gold and
> silver. Can I ask your source for the statement that the Greeks
> applied the term to amber?

This is a misunderstanding, probably cause of my bad english.

Oreichalkos was not a very common word it seems to me.
In all the greek texts on www.perseus.tufts.edu (an extremely useful site)
I only found 4 occurrences of it besides in Platons Critias (two of them I
cited in the posting above).

But it really isn’t important how Platon named it, because neither the
egypt priest, nor Solon nor Platon or Critias had an idea what it was.
Platon didn’t mean amber/elektrum, brass or a mixture of gold and silver.
He or Solon or Critias just picked a word.

But all what Platon sais about the oreichalcum fits on amber.

With kind regards,
Harald Henkel

P.S.
Just to mention: I’m not a scientist (well I studied computer science as it
is called in english).
I’m just interested in Spanuths theory and make a homepage for it (only in
german at the moment).

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Eric Stevens10/5/99

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I suppose, next thing, you will have me a member of the Waffen SS. Re the gilded floor: was it the conventional form of gilding using thin gold sheets?

– show quoted text –

On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 06:39:11 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

– show quoted text –

>In article <QgL5Nx53avw2La…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that the first production of paint containing
>> metal powder occurred as a result of the accidental inclusion of an
>> aluminium ball in a paint-mill in an American paint maker’s plant,
>> about 1928. needless to say, the car was the hit of the NY motor show!
>> Prior that event, the idea had not occurred to anybody. I would be
>> surprised if that was the case if plaster containing metal powder had
>> been known for millenia.
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
>What about the gilded floor of the palace at Pi-Ramesse on
>the Nile Delta? A piece of that floor was found recently,
>and another alleged fairy tale of archaeology turned out
>to be true … Alas, you read old books of pseudo-archaeology
>instead of scientific articles and books by true archaeologists
>who do actual fieldwork. You dream of an Atlantis in the German
>Sea for which there ain’t one single grain of evidence while
>you ignore the real findings of present-day archaeology.
>
>How sad.

I suppose, next thing, you will have me a member of the Waffen SS.

Re the gilded floor: was it the conventional form of gilding using
thin gold sheets?


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

Show trimmed content

Eric Stevens10/5/99

 Other recipients:   

On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 09:02:12 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> wrote: >> >Of course the Greek at Platons time knew amber, which they called

On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 09:02:12 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
wrote:

>> >Of course the Greek at Platons time knew amber, which they called


>> >”elektrum”,
>>
>> That’s interesting. Its usually held to be a mixture of gold and
>> silver. Can I ask your source for the statement that the Greeks
>> applied the term to amber?
>
>This is a misunderstanding, probably cause of my bad english.
>
>Oreichalkos was not a very common word it seems to me.
>In all the greek texts on www.perseus.tufts.edu (an extremely useful site)
>I only found 4 occurrences of it besides in Platons Critias (two of them I
>cited in the posting above).
>

No, iy\ts my bad phrasing of the sentence. What I should have written
was:

  “Electrum is usually held to be a mixture of gold and silver. Can I


   ask your source for the statement that the Greeks applied the term

   ‘electrum’ to amber?


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

Show trimmed content

Harald Henkel10/5/99

 Other recipients:   

Hi Eric. Eric Stevens wrote:

Hi Eric.

Eric Stevens wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 09:02:12 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
> wrote:
>
> >> >Of course the Greek at Platons time knew amber, which they called
> >> >”elektrum”,

— snip —

>
>   “Electrum is usually held to be a mixture of gold and silver. Can I
>    ask your source for the statement that the Greeks applied the term
>    ‘electrum’ to amber?

e.g.
Pausanias Description of Greece 5.12.7
translation as allways according to www.perseus.tufts.edu:

“hai de eikones hai tois kataskeuasmasi tois peripheresin enkeimenai, h├¬ men
tou
êlektrou
basileôs Rhômaiôn estin Augoustou, hê de
tou elephantos basileôs Nikomêdous elegeto einai Bithunôn. apo toutou de kai
têi megistêi tôn en Bithuniai poleôn meteblêthê to onoma, Astakôi ta pro
toutou kaloumenêi: ta de ex archês autêi Zupoitês egeneto oikistês, Thraix
genos eikazonti ge apo tou onomatos. to de
êlektron
touto hou t├┤i Augoust├┤i
pepoi├¬ntai t├¬n eikona, hoson men automaton en tou ├Őridanou tais psammois
heurisketai, spanizetai ta malista kai anthr├┤p├┤i timion poll├┤n estin heneka: to
de
allo
êlektron
anamemigmenos estin argur├┤i chrusos.”

“Of the statues set up in the round buildings, the
amber
one represents Augustus the Roman emperor, the ivory one they told me was a
portrait of Nicomedes, king of Bithynia. After him the greatest city in
Bithynia was renamed Nicomedeia1; before him it was called Astacus, and its
first
founder was Zypoetes, a Thracian by birth to judge from his name. This
amber
of which the statue of Augustus is made, when found native in the sand of the
Eridanus, is very rare and precious to men for many reasons; the other
“amber”
is an alloy of gold and silver.”

See also the lexika entries accessible by this site and many other texts.

It seems that the greek used the word êlektrou/êlektron as well for amber as
for an alloy of gold and silver as you wrote.

So if they used this word for two qiute different things, then how can we be
sure what they used oreichalkos for.

But, as I wrote before, it doesn’t matter which word Platon / Solon used.

The priest told him about some material that’s shining /sparkling like fire
(did you ever hold a piece of North Sea amber to the sun ?), can be digged out
of the earth (even in this century they digged tons of amber out of the North
Sea) and was very famous / demanded by the people (amber roads from North Sea
to south with big amber depots along, many findings in graves), but unknown at
the time Solon lived (because the roads “dried out” cause the north sea people
moved away from their home land and there was nobody left to bring amber to
egypt any more) – and it may be heated in oil and put on walls (we know at
least by a bronze age finger ring made by melted amber that the northern people
knew how to melt amber).

Since Solon also didn’t know what material this was, he picked a word –
oreichalkos.

Harald Henkel

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har…@henkel.dah.uunet.de10/5/99

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In article <7tc753$cjn$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,

In article <7tc753$cjn$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,


  cir…@access.ch wrote:
> Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
> called me a liar and a biased stupido

Yes. But you can defend yourself.
Spanuth cannot. He died last year.

> I don’t care if Juergen Spanuth was an official member of
> the NSDAP and/or SS, if he was a secret member of the NSDAP
> and/or SS, or if he stood on no such a list. He worked for
> the Nazis, and he propagated a Nazi phantasma. That makes
> him de facto a Nazi.

Your whining “Spanuth was a Nazi”, “Spanuth propagated a Nazi phantasma”
won’t make it come true.

I have several statements of Spanuth that show very clearly what he was
thinking about the Nazi.

Spanuth NEVER worked for the Nazis. Neither directly nor indirectly.

******************
His opponents did.
******************

Dr. Karl Gripp, the leader of the “Discussions” in Schleswig and Kiel worked
for the SA as geologist. Before the war (arround 1934) he was sentenced by
court and wasn’t allowed to teach at a (german) university for the rest of
his life, because of PLAGIATISM. So he went to the SA. After the war he
claimed to be a “victim of fashizm”, got a new “Professur” at the university
at Kiel, became “Dekan” and was responsible for “Denazification” !

Thus he was able to press some colleges that also worked for the Nazis to
fight Spanuth – because Spanuth had given the “Steingrund” slabs to Prof.
Rose, who was responsible for Gripps punishment at court.

Prof. Herbert Jankuhn, NSDAP-member and “Sturmbandf├╝hrer der SS”
Prof. Ernst Sprockhoff, worked on projects that were paid by the SS-Ahnenerbe.

These and others were Nazis (or at least worked for them).

NOT Spanuth.

You won’t make it come true in a million years.

> You can go on calling me a liar and
> a stupido, that won’t change a thing. Oreichalkos remains
> mountain-copper = brass, and aurichalcit remains a mineral
> containing copper and zinc. Not even calling me 5 names
> will turn oreichalkos / aurichalcit into amber.

Vice versa.
Your whining “oreichalkos = brass” won’t make this come true either.

At least as it concerns the “oreichalkos” in Platons Atlantis report.

The priest told Solon about some material that’s shining /sparkling like fire


(did you ever hold a piece of North Sea amber to the sun ?), can be digged
out of the earth (even in this century they digged tons of amber out of the
North Sea) and was very famous / demanded by the people (amber roads from
North Sea to south with big amber depots along, many findings in graves), but
unknown at the time Solon lived (because the roads “dried out” cause the
north sea people moved away from their home land and there was nobody left to
bring amber to egypt any more) – and it may be heated in oil and put on walls
(we know at least by a bronze age finger ring made by melted amber that the
northern people knew how to melt amber).

By the way, where’s your proof that brass was produced and used 600 BC ?

> And you
> may call me 10 names, that won’t make Germans out of the
> ancient Greeks.

YOU mix up (nowadays) Germans with Teutons !
Spanuth never did something like this.

The similiarities between greec and teutonic mythology are fact.
And in greece this mythology developed mainly after 1200 BC while
the teutonic mythology is much older
(as far as I know, but you have probably newer information :-7 )

> FOR THEY HAVE BEEN SWISS! E.g. Aristotle

— snip —


> If oreichalkos / aurichalcit = amber, all is true.

Your polemics won’t help you much.


Perhaps you are a real export on some field / topic.
But you are clearly prejudiced against Spanuth – and perhaps all Germans.


Harald Henkel

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On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:16:57 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> wrote: >The priest told him about some material that’s shining /sparkling like fire

On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 11:16:57 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
wrote:

>The priest told him about some material that’s shining /sparkling like fire


>(did you ever hold a piece of North Sea amber to the sun ?), can be digged out
>of the earth (even in this century they digged tons of amber out of the North
>Sea) and was very famous / demanded by the people (amber roads from North Sea
>to south with big amber depots along, many findings in graves), but unknown at
>the time Solon lived (because the roads “dried out” cause the north sea people
>moved away from their home land and there was nobody left to bring amber to
>egypt any more) – and it may be heated in oil and put on walls (we know at
>least by a bronze age finger ring made by melted amber that the northern people
>knew how to melt amber).
>
>Since Solon also didn’t know what material this was, he picked a word –
>oreichalkos.

So, if you are correct, in the past ‘oreichalkos’ has had two
different meanings and for the purposes Plato’s Atlantis, in modern
times, we have chosen the wrong one.

That is rather interesting as the equation of amber with oreichalkos
by Spanuth is one of the more obvious apparent inconsistencies of his
identification of his reputed islands as Atlantis.


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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You have many times accussed him of literally being a Nazi, not just a Nazi sympathiser. I can also remember that in one of your many posts you gave details of his purported involvement in a Nazi group set up to prove Hitler’s favourite fanatsy, what

On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 06:51:17 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>I don’t care if Juergen Spanuth was an official member of
>the NSDAP and/or SS, if he was a secret member of the NSDAP
>and/or SS, or if he stood on no such a list.

>He worked for
>the Nazis, and he propagated a Nazi phantasma. That makes
>him de facto a Nazi.

You have many times accussed him of literally being a Nazi, not just a
Nazi sympathiser. I can also remember that in one of your many posts
you gave details of his purported involvement in a Nazi group set up
to prove Hitler’s favourite fanatsy, what ever that was.

Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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cir…@access.ch10/6/99

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In article <7tdq6f$j3d$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>, Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:

In article <7tdq6f$j3d$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:

> I have several statements of Spanuth that show very clearly
> what he was thinking about the Nazi.

Tell us.

> Spanuth NEVER worked for the Nazis. Neither directly nor
> indirectly.

He propagated a Nazi phantasma and published in the Grabert
Verlag Tuebingen. You cherish the same phantasma that you share
with Adolf Hitler, Hitler-admirer Heinrich Pudor who located
Atlantis in the German Sea, SS-member and Himmler-protege Herman
Wirth, Wehrmacht soldier Juergen Spanuth who followed Heinrich
Pudor, and further authors of the Grabert Verlag who hated the
old saying EX ORIENTE LUX while they believed that the ancient
Greeks have been Germans, thus justifying WORLD WAR II – all
of Europe was German right from the begin, so Hitler and the
Wehrmacht were entitled to conquer whole Europe …

> Your whining “oreichalkos = brass” won’t make this come
> true either.

Very glad to see that Juergen Spanuth has only ignorant
supporters like you and Eric. Oreichalkos was mountain-copper,
a brass rich in zinc, while the mineral aurichalcit contains
copper and zinc and was found near Andeira in the Troas (plain
of Troy), about 80 kilometers south-east of Troy. Plato clearly
says that oreichalkos was a metal. Do you believe that he didn’t
know that chalkos was copper, hence a metal? Aristotle wrote
that there have been stelae made of oreichalkos, and so on,
and so on, and so on. Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book
(Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert,
Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass artefacts
prove that brass was produced already 2000 years before the
Roman era while chemical analyzes of those artefacts reveal
that the brass came from Troy. A while ago I told you (via
e-mail) to read Eberhard Zangger’s new book, and you promised
me to do so, but obviuously you didn’t, or else you couldn’t
write such popycock as you did in another message of this thread
where you came up with the glorious equation

  oreichalkos = electrum = amber

You give people the idea that the Germans are still fools
and dind’t learn anything during all those years. Listen
everybody: absolutely no German archaeologist in his or
her right mind takes Juergen Spanuth seriously. Many German
archaeologists do great jobs – although they are almost
completely ignored in our forum of phantasmagorial archaeology.

> The similiarities between greec and teutonic mythology are fact.
> And in greece this mythology developed mainly after 1200 BC while
> the teutonic mythology is much older
> (as far as I know, but you have probably newer information :-7 )
>

> Harald Henkel

Harald, you are a fool, and you know nothing of archaeology.
Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the Phaistos Disk and you
will see that Greek mythology and writing was already fully
developed in around 1650 BC.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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cir…@access.ch10/6/99

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In article <PLX5NxZSYZOUck…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

In article <PLX5NxZSYZOUck…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

> I suppose, next thing, you will have me a member of the
> Waffen SS.

Did I ever say anything like that?? No, I say that you read
old books by a pseudo-archaeologist (Juergen Spanuth) who
propagated a Nazi phantasma, instead of new articles and books


by true archaeologists who do actual fieldwork.

> Re the gilded floor: was it the conventional form of gilding
> using thin gold sheets?

Gold powder and foil gold strewn on fresh plaster. Silver and
golden floors are mentioned in several Egyptian texts but were
believed to be a mere phantasy, much like Plato’s Atlantis and
the walls of the Atlantian acropolis that allegedly have been
coated with copper (chalkos), tin, and brass (oreichalkos) …
Then, on November 21, 1997, Dr. Egon Pusch, while cleaning up
the excavation site at Pi-Rameese (Qantir, eastern Nile delta)
saw a golden glimmer on the ground – several small pieces of
a gilded floor! Examinations of the plaster pieces revealed
that gold powder and foil gold was strewn on fresh plaster.
Area of the floor some 40 square meters (state of October 98).
A first datation gave a time around 1300 BC, matching the
reigning time of Ramesse II (ca. 1298-1231 BC). – A sensational
find casting a new light on other ancient writings. especially
on Plato’s Atlantis report (which he repeatedly called a LOGOS
and not a MYTHOS).

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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cir…@access.ch10/6/99

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In article <BYT6NzXDxdNF9L…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

In article <BYT6NzXDxdNF9L…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

> You have many times accussed him of literally being a Nazi, not just a
> Nazi sympathiser. I can also remember that in one of your many posts
> you gave details of his purported involvement in a Nazi group set up
> to prove Hitler’s favourite fanatsy, what ever that was.
>
> Eric Stevens

Juergen Spanuth took up the Atlantis = Helgoland thesis
by Heinrich Pudor, an admirer of Hitler, who wrote a book
mainly in the year 1931 and published it in the year 1936:

  Voelker aus Gottes Athem, Atlantis – Helgoland,
  das arisch-germanische Rassenhochzucht- und
  Kolonisationsmutterland

My translation:

  Peoples of God’s own breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,
  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial High-Breeding
  and Colonisation

Heinrich Pudor called Helgoland “Heimat der Hellenen und auch
der Roemer” – home of the Hellenians and also of the Romans.
The same was told by the authors who published in the Grabert
Verlag Tuebingen, a publishing house of the extreme right wing.
Also Juergen Spanuth published a book in the Grabert Verlag.
He took up the theses by Heinrich Pudor, yet without mentioning
his name. Why? He obviously tried to give a clean, whitewashed
version of that Nazi phantasma. All that makes him de facto
a Nazi – whether he was an official or a secret member of the
NSDAP and/or the SS or if he stood on no such list, or if he
stays on a list which is hidden and lost somewhere in a Russian
archive.

I asked you many times: tell me just one single valid idea
by Juergen Spanuth, but you avoided to give me an answer.
You post an average of a dozen messages a day. Too much
for someone who has a very poor idea of present-day
archaeology.


Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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You have given hints that you were heading that way. I presume you are implying that you cannot theorise about the findindings unless you have actually participated in them.

On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 07:02:01 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <PLX5NxZSYZOUck…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> I suppose, next thing, you will have me a member of the
>> Waffen SS.
>
>Did I ever say anything like that?? No, I say that you read
>old books by a pseudo-archaeologist (Juergen Spanuth) who
>propagated a Nazi phantasma, instead of new articles and books
>by true archaeologists who do actual fieldwork.

You have given hints that you were heading that way. I presume you are
implying that you cannot theorise about the findindings unless you
have actually participated in them.


>
>> Re the gilded floor: was it the conventional form of gilding
>> using thin gold sheets?
>
>Gold powder and foil gold strewn on fresh plaster.

Make up your mind. Gold foild is **old**. Gold (true) powder is, as
far as I know, very knew. Which was it? What you call powder may have
been flakes of gold foil.

   — snip —-


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Eric Stevens10/6/99

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That’s one hell of a long sentence! You should get a job as a Victorian novelist. Just dealing with the first part of it: I understand that Adolf Hitler, Hitler-admirer Heinrich Pudor, SS-member and Himmler-protege

On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 06:44:01 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <7tdq6f$j3d$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>  Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:
>
>> I have several statements of Spanuth that show very clearly
>> what he was thinking about the Nazi.
>
>Tell us.
>
>> Spanuth NEVER worked for the Nazis. Neither directly nor
>> indirectly.
>
>He propagated a Nazi phantasma and published in the Grabert
>Verlag Tuebingen. You cherish the same phantasma that you share
>with Adolf Hitler, Hitler-admirer Heinrich Pudor who located
>Atlantis in the German Sea, SS-member and Himmler-protege Herman
>Wirth, Wehrmacht soldier Juergen Spanuth who followed Heinrich
>Pudor, and further authors of the Grabert Verlag who hated the
>old saying EX ORIENTE LUX while they believed that the ancient
>Greeks have been Germans, thus justifying WORLD WAR II – all
>of Europe was German right from the begin, so Hitler and the
>Wehrmacht were entitled to conquer whole Europe …

That’s one hell of a long sentence!

You should get a job as a Victorian novelist.

Just dealing with the first part of it: I understand that Adolf
Hitler, Hitler-admirer Heinrich Pudor, SS-member and Himmler-protege


Herman Wirth, Wehrmacht soldier Juergen Spanuth who followed Heinrich

Pudor, and further authors of the Grabert Verlag – all advocted eating
a healthy diet and getting lost of fresh air. I’m glad to know that
this is a Nazi plot.


>
>> Your whining “oreichalkos = brass” won’t make this come
>> true either.
>
>Very glad to see that Juergen Spanuth has only ignorant
>supporters like you and Eric. Oreichalkos was mountain-copper,
>a brass rich in zinc, while the mineral aurichalcit contains
>copper and zinc and was found near Andeira in the Troas (plain
>of Troy), about 80 kilometers south-east of Troy. Plato clearly
>says that oreichalkos was a metal. Do you believe that he didn’t
>know that chalkos was copper, hence a metal? Aristotle wrote
>that there have been stelae made of oreichalkos, and so on,
>and so on, and so on. Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book
>(Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert,
>Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass artefacts
>prove that brass was produced already 2000 years before the
>Roman era while chemical analyzes of those artefacts reveal
>that the brass came from Troy.

That’s interesting. Can you give a source for this? How was the source
of the brass established?

>A while ago I told you (via
>e-mail) to read Eberhard Zangger’s new book, and you promised
>me to do so, but obviuously you didn’t, or else you couldn’t
>write such popycock as you did in another message of this thread
>where you came up with the glorious equation
>
>  oreichalkos = electrum = amber
>
>You give people the idea that the Germans are still fools
>and dind’t learn anything during all those years. Listen
>everybody: absolutely no German archaeologist in his or
>her right mind takes Juergen Spanuth seriously. Many German
>archaeologists do great jobs – although they are almost
>completely ignored in our forum of phantasmagorial archaeology.
>
>> The similiarities between greec and teutonic mythology are fact.
>> And in greece this mythology developed mainly after 1200 BC while
>> the teutonic mythology is much older
>> (as far as I know, but you have probably newer information :-7 )
>>
>> Harald Henkel
>
>Harald, you are a fool, and you know nothing of archaeology.

Do you **really** dig myths out of the ground?

>Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the Phaistos Disk and you
>will see that Greek mythology and writing was already fully
>developed in around 1650 BC.

Hmm…


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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cir…@access.ch10/6/99

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In article <lBD7N1Q0AiUwiX…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote: (Me, replying to Harald:)

In article <lBD7N1Q0AiUwiX…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

(Me, replying to Harald:)

> >Very glad to see that Juergen Spanuth has only ignorant
> >supporters like you and Eric. Oreichalkos was mountain-copper,
> >a brass rich in zinc, while the mineral aurichalcit contains
> >copper and zinc and was found near Andeira in the Troas (plain
> >of Troy), about 80 kilometers south-east of Troy. Plato clearly
> >says that oreichalkos was a metal. Do you believe that he didn’t
> >know that chalkos was copper, hence a metal? Aristotle wrote
> >that there have been stelae made of oreichalkos, and so on,
> >and so on, and so on. Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book
> >(Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert,
> >Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass artefacts
> >prove that brass was produced already 2000 years before the
> >Roman era while chemical analyzes of those artefacts reveal
> >that the brass came from Troy.

(Eric:)

> That’s interesting. Can you give a source for this? How was
> the source of the brass established?

I gave you the source: Eberhard Zangger. He doesn’t say more,
for his new book is a popular one, an easily readable lecture,
brimful of reliable informations, yet without notes and a full
bibliography, only further readings (or else the book would have
some 3681 pages). I could give you the address of his office at
Zurich, but I already gave you the names and mail addresses of
2 prominent members of the commission for underwater archaeology
in Germany and told you to ask them about the “Steingrund” and
what was found (or not) around Helgoland, but you showed little
or no interest, so I guess you don’t really wish to know about
brass in the Bronze Age too. So why should I spend more time for
you than I already do replying to all your messages? Did you ever
look up an article or book I recommended anyway?

I don’t know how the Tojan brass was identified, Zangger speaks
of a chemical method. There is also a new method that uses a laser
to evaporate a few molecules of inclusions that can then be analysed
by means of a spectrometer. This method allows to carbon date (C14)
gold and other metalls. If for example Eberhard Zangger would find
a cemetary in the Troas, this method would allow to find out where
the buried people are from: Anatolia or Mycenae … (It may be
the method Zangger is speaking of.)

We have a lot of new methods in modern archaeology that enable
us to solve a lot of old problems. If you would read scientific
literature instead of … You know what I mean.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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Eric Stevens10/7/99

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OK. You don’t know the source but you believe Zangger may.

– show quoted text –

On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:09:50 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

– show quoted text –

>In article <lBD7N1Q0AiUwiX…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>(Me, replying to Harald:)
>
>> >Very glad to see that Juergen Spanuth has only ignorant
>> >supporters like you and Eric. Oreichalkos was mountain-copper,
>> >a brass rich in zinc, while the mineral aurichalcit contains
>> >copper and zinc and was found near Andeira in the Troas (plain
>> >of Troy), about 80 kilometers south-east of Troy. Plato clearly
>> >says that oreichalkos was a metal. Do you believe that he didn’t
>> >know that chalkos was copper, hence a metal? Aristotle wrote
>> >that there have been stelae made of oreichalkos, and so on,
>> >and so on, and so on. Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book
>> >(Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert,
>> >Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass artefacts
>> >prove that brass was produced already 2000 years before the
>> >Roman era while chemical analyzes of those artefacts reveal
>> >that the brass came from Troy.
>
>(Eric:)
>
>> That’s interesting. Can you give a source for this? How was
>> the source of the brass established?
>
>I gave you the source: Eberhard Zangger. He doesn’t say more,
>for his new book is a popular one, an easily readable lecture,
>brimful of reliable informations, yet without notes and a full
>bibliography, only further readings (or else the book would have
>some 3681 pages).

OK. You don’t know the source but you believe Zangger may.

>I could give you the address of his office at
>Zurich, but I already gave you the names and mail addresses of
>2 prominent members of the commission for underwater archaeology
>in Germany and told you to ask them about the “Steingrund” and
>what was found (or not) around Helgoland, but you showed little
>or no interest, so I guess you don’t really wish to know about
>brass in the Bronze Age too.

You are a fool. I said I would write, and I have. I will let you know
the results when I am able.

>So why should I spend more time for
>you than I already do replying to all your messages? Did you ever
>look up an article or book I recommended anyway?

Those in English. Why else do you think I bought Zangger?


>
>I don’t know how the Tojan brass was identified, Zangger speaks
>of a chemical method. There is also a new method that uses a laser
>to evaporate a few molecules of inclusions that can then be analysed
>by means of a spectrometer. This method allows to carbon date (C14)
>gold and other metalls. If for example Eberhard Zangger would find
>a cemetary in the Troas, this method would allow to find out where
>the buried people are from: Anatolia or Mycenae … (It may be
>the method Zangger is speaking of.)
>
>We have a lot of new methods in modern archaeology that enable
>us to solve a lot of old problems. If you would read scientific
>literature instead of … You know what I mean.

I probably know more about the analysis of metals than you do.
Certainly I know far more than you give me credit for. In any case, we
can’t all know all about everything and one of the ideas behind news
groups was to enable people to cooperate.

Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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So? There **may** still have been an element of truth to the idea, no matter what Pudor tried to make of it. — Pudor snipped —-

On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 09:48:24 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <BYT6NzXDxdNF9L…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> You have many times accussed him of literally being a Nazi, not just a
>> Nazi sympathiser. I can also remember that in one of your many posts
>> you gave details of his purported involvement in a Nazi group set up
>> to prove Hitler’s favourite fanatsy, what ever that was.
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
>Juergen Spanuth took up the Atlantis = Helgoland thesis
>by Heinrich Pudor, an admirer of Hitler, who wrote a book
>mainly in the year 1931 and published it in the year 1936:
>
>  Voelker aus Gottes Athem, Atlantis – Helgoland,
>  das arisch-germanische Rassenhochzucht- und
>  Kolonisationsmutterland
>
>My translation:
>
>  Peoples of God’s own breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,
>  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial High-Breeding
>  and Colonisation
>

So? There **may** still have been an element of truth to the idea, no
matter what Pudor tried to make of it.

  — Pudor snipped —-


>
>I asked you many times: tell me just one single valid idea
>by Juergen Spanuth, but you avoided to give me an answer.

Sure you haven’t forgotten already? Don’t you, for example, remember
how in the end you complained about the poor quality of the underwater
photograph of flint paving stones that you said didn’t exist that you
said Spanuth didn’t take while on a dive you said he hadn’t made over
the sand bed which is all that now remins of the island you said never
was?

>You post an average of a dozen messages a day. Too much
>for someone who has a very poor idea of present-day
>archaeology.

I certainly don’t have such strong ideas as you seem to. But the, I
never claimed to be an archaeologist. I am merely very interested in
some aspects of what archaeologist have discovered.

Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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cir…@access.ch10/7/99

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In article <8KL7N3Ffx5JML7xbOWcXQf=zq…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote: (Me:)

In article <8KL7N3Ffx5JML7xbOWcXQf=zq…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

(Me:)

> >Juergen Spanuth took up the Atlantis = Helgoland thesis
> >by Heinrich Pudor, an admirer of Hitler, who wrote a book
> >mainly in the year 1931 and published it in the year 1936:
> >
> >  Voelker aus Gottes Athem, Atlantis – Helgoland,
> >  das arisch-germanische Rassenhochzucht- und
> >  Kolonisationsmutterland
> >
> >My translation:
> >
> >  Peoples of God’s own breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,
> >  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial High-Breeding
> >  and Colonisation
> >
> So? There **may** still have been an element of truth to the idea, no
> matter what Pudor tried to make of it.
>

A better translation:

  Peoples of God’s Own Breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,

  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial Select Breeding
  and Colonization

Why doesn’t Juergen Spanuth mention his source, namely Pudor?
Not mentioning the source, the main source, does this make
one a scholar? Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
and what you are up to.

(Me:)

> >I asked you many times: tell me just one single valid idea
> >by Juergen Spanuth, but you avoided to give me an answer.

(Eric:)

> Sure you haven’t forgotten already? Don’t you, for example, remember
> how in the end you complained about the poor quality of the underwater
> photograph of flint paving stones that you said didn’t exist that you
> said Spanuth didn’t take while on a dive you said he hadn’t made over
> the sand bed which is all that now remins of the island you said never
> was?

You are not only a fool, you are a spammer too. First you told me
that Juergen Spanuth discovered the Steingrund, hereupon I asked
you four questions regarding the Steingrund, whereupon you told
me that someone else than Spanuth discovered the Steingrund, of
course without answering one single of my questions. Moreover,
I gave you the names and mail addresses of two prominent members


of the commission for underwater archaeology in Germany and told

you to write them and ask about the Steingrund and other possible
findings in the German Sea, especially around Helgoland, but you
showed no interest. You can’t tell me anything about the Steingrund,
but I should believe you that it was Atlantis? Are you mangos?
You don’t wish to know anything about facts. You just feel cozy
in the waterbag of your phantasma.

(Eric:)

> I never claimed to be an archaeologist. I am merely very interested
> in some aspects of what archaeologist have discovered.

You are no archaeologist, you have no idea of present-day archaeology,
you know nothing of the findings you are speaking of (Steingrund),
you can’t anwer any question on those findings, you can’t even tell
one single valid idea by your favorite author (Spanuth), you are not
willing to read scientific articles and books by true archaeologists
who do actual fieldwork, you don’t even understand English, namely
“gold powder” which is the correct translation of the German word
“Goldstaub” … and all that entitles you to spam our forum of
scientific archaeology with an average of 12 posts a day.

Franz Gnaedinger   Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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Eric Stevens10/7/99

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He certainly doesn’t seem to make any reference to Pudor in the English edition, that I can see. He does quote a large number of sources. Maybe he was able to construct his argument without quoting Pudor? >Not mentioning the source, the main source,

On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:27:52 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <8KL7N3Ffx5JML7xbOWcXQf=zq…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>(Me:)
>
>> >Juergen Spanuth took up the Atlantis = Helgoland thesis
>> >by Heinrich Pudor, an admirer of Hitler, who wrote a book
>> >mainly in the year 1931 and published it in the year 1936:
>> >
>> >  Voelker aus Gottes Athem, Atlantis – Helgoland,
>> >  das arisch-germanische Rassenhochzucht- und
>> >  Kolonisationsmutterland
>> >
>> >My translation:
>> >
>> >  Peoples of God’s own breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,
>> >  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial High-Breeding
>> >  and Colonisation
>> >
>> So? There **may** still have been an element of truth to the idea, no
>> matter what Pudor tried to make of it.
>>
>
>A better translation:
>
>  Peoples of God’s Own Breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,
>  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial Select Breeding
>  and Colonization
>
>Why doesn’t Juergen Spanuth mention his source, namely Pudor?

He certainly doesn’t seem to make any reference to Pudor in the
English edition, that I can see. He does quote a large number of
sources. Maybe he was able to construct his argument without quoting
Pudor?

>Not mentioning the source, the main source, does this make
>one a scholar?

Only if Pudor was the main source, and he Spanuth seems to have done
quite well without mentioning him.

>Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
>and what you are up to.

I wish I understood what you meant by that.
>
>(Me:)
>
>> >I asked you many times: tell me just one single valid idea
>> >by Juergen Spanuth, but you avoided to give me an answer.
>
>(Eric:)
>
>> Sure you haven’t forgotten already? Don’t you, for example, remember
>> how in the end you complained about the poor quality of the underwater
>> photograph of flint paving stones that you said didn’t exist that you
>> said Spanuth didn’t take while on a dive you said he hadn’t made over
>> the sand bed which is all that now remins of the island you said never
>> was?
>
>You are not only a fool, you are a spammer too. First you told me
>that Juergen Spanuth discovered the Steingrund,

That surprises me. Can you give me the refrence?

>hereupon I asked
>you four questions regarding the Steingrund, whereupon you told
>me that someone else than Spanuth discovered the Steingrund, of
>course without answering one single of my questions.

Ditto. Or should I say poppycock?

>Moreover,
>I gave you the names and mail addresses of two prominent members
>of the commission for underwater archaeology in Germany and told
>you to write them and ask about the Steingrund and other possible
>findings in the German Sea, especially around Helgoland, but you
>showed no interest.

How can you tell? Do you read my mail?

I have written but I was not able to write immediately. I have already
told you that once.

>You can’t tell me anything about the Steingrund,
>but I should believe you that it was Atlantis?

I don’t know. That’s up to you.

>Are you mangos?

Bananas, perhaps.

>You don’t wish to know anything about facts. You just feel cozy
>in the waterbag of your phantasma.

You do of course remember that, when it came to the transfer of facts,
most of your contribution has been along the line of “tell me just one
single valid idea by Juergen Spanuth” interspersed with cries of
“poppycock!”.
>
>(Eric:)
>
>> I never claimed to be an archaeologist. I am merely very interested
>> in some aspects of what archaeologist have discovered.
>
>You are no archaeologist, you have no idea of present-day archaeology,
>you know nothing of the findings you are speaking of (Steingrund),

True, but I am in the process of finding out.

>you can’t anwer any question on those findings,

I’m not prepared to try to answer the loaded questions which are your
specialty.

>you can’t even tell
>one single valid idea by your favorite author (Spanuth),

Actually, he is not my favourite. Quite clearly he is not yours
either.

>you are not
>willing to read scientific articles and books by true archaeologists
>who do actual fieldwork,

Poppycock    ­čÖé

>you don’t even understand English, namely
>”gold powder” which is the correct translation of the German word
>”Goldstaub” … and all that entitles you to spam our forum of
>scientific archaeology with an average of 12 posts a day.

Now, when you previously wrote:

>Gold powder and foil gold strewn on fresh plaster.

I asked you “Make up your mind. Gold foil is **old**. Gold (true)
powder is, as far as I know, very new. Which was it? What you call
powder may have been flakes of gold foil”.

You have not given me the courtesy of an answer. Do you know the
answer? Or don’t you know the difference between gold powder and gold
flakes? Maybe you don’t care?

Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Harald Henkel10/7/99

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Eric Stevens wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:27:52 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

> >Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
> >and what you are up to.
>
> I wish I understood what you meant by that.

He meant you are a Nazi like Spanuth – and probably me, too ;-))

Harald Henkel

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cir…@access.ch10/7/99

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In article <lWP8N55QtNOsbl…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

In article <lWP8N55QtNOsbl…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

> He certainly doesn’t seem to make any reference to Pudor in the
> English edition, that I can see. He does quote a large number of
> sources. Maybe he was able to construct his argument without quoting
> Pudor?

(Me:)

> >Not mentioning the source, the main source, does this make
> >one a scholar?

(Eric:)

> Only if Pudor was the main source, and he Spanuth seems to have done
> quite well without mentioning him.

Atlantis = Helgoland was Heinrich Pudor’s thesis. If someone
takes up a thesis by someone else, he or she is absolutely
obliged to name the author who proposed it first. Or else
that someone ain’t a scholar. And when you go on telling me
such nonsense as above you prove that you have not the least
idea of science.

> >Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
> >and what you are up to.
>
> I wish I understood what you meant by that.

Your ideas of the past are incompatible with the numerous
findings of present-day archaeology, but well compatible
with the ideaology of any neo-Nazi group.

(Eric, when I remembered him of my questions regarding
the Steingrund:)

> That surprises me. Can you give me the refrence?

Go to Deja (link below) and Power Search and look up the post
wherein I mentioned the addresses of Dr. Willi Kramer. In that
post I asked you four questions. You didn’t answer them. You
spam our scientific forum with a dozen mostly meaningless posts
a day and can’t even remember what you wrote.

(Eric:)

> You do of course remember that, when it came to the transfer of facts,
> most of your contribution has been along the line of “tell me just one
> single valid idea by Juergen Spanuth” interspersed with cries of
> “poppycock!”.

Really, you are a fool. I can only repeat myself. When I rave
over something I give people a summary and recommend books
and go into every detail if someone is interested and asks me
a question and spend a day in a library just to answer a difficult
one. But you are not willing to tell me anything on that Steingrund,
and you can’t tell me one single valid idea by Juergen Spanuth.
I am not obliged to render his work, I had a look at it and found
only poppycock. I read articles and books by true archaeologists
(who are never mentioned in this forum of silly archaeology),
and speak about  t h e i r  work.

(Eric:)

> Now, when you previously wrote:
>
> >Gold powder and foil gold strewn on fresh plaster.
>
> I asked you “Make up your mind. Gold foil is **old**. Gold (true)
> powder is, as far as I know, very new. Which was it? What you call
> powder may have been flakes of gold foil”.

Must I give you the German quote?

  “Goldstaub und Blattgold in den Stuckfussboden gestreut”

     Gold = gold
     Staub = dust, powder
     und = and
     Blattgold – foil gold
     gestreut in – strewn into (or on)
     Stuck – stucco, plaster of Paris, plaster
     Fussboden – floor

If you would read journals or magazines of true archaeology
instead of pseudo-sc├«entific stuff you couldn’t have missed
the sensational finding by Dr. Edgar Pusch at Pi-Ramesse.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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har…@henkel.dah.uunet.de10/7/99

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In article <7tfs80$vvr$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>, cir…@access.ch wrote: — snip — > Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book > (Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert, > Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass arte

In article <7tfs80$vvr$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  cir…@access.ch wrote:
— snip —

> Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book
> (Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert,
> Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass artefacts
> prove that brass was produced already 2000 years before the
> Roman era while chemical analyzes of those artefacts reveal
> that the brass came from Troy.

So what ?
There are peaces of jewelry and small carved animals made of amber,
found at J├╝tland that date to 6000 BC.

— snip —

> I don’t know how the Tojan brass was identified, Zangger speaks
> of a chemical method. There is also a new method that uses a laser
> to evaporate a few molecules of inclusions that can then be analysed
> by means of a spectrometer. This method allows to carbon date (C14)
> gold and other metalls.

Oh, that’s intersting. Zangger gets carbon out of gold!
An alchemist ! No sorry, those tried the other way round.
;-))

Ok, I didn’t read Zanggers book yet. But I surely will, when I have some time.

But I read a somewhat critical review of the book by some archaeologist of
the University at T├╝bingen whe belongs to the “Project Troia” who do
excavations in Troy since about 10 years.

Harald Henkel


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har…@henkel.dah.uunet.de10/7/99

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Translate message to English Translating… Translated by Google – German ? English –  View Original  

In article <7tf5t6$fm5$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,

In article <7tf5t6$fm5$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,


  cir…@access.ch wrote:
> Juergen Spanuth took up the Atlantis = Helgoland thesis
> by Heinrich Pudor, an admirer of Hitler,

— snip —

> The same was told by the authors who published in the Grabert
> Verlag Tuebingen, a publishing house of the extreme right wing.
> Also Juergen Spanuth published a book in the Grabert Verlag.

In fact, Spnuth published 3 books in the Grabert-Verlag
(“Atlantis, Heimat, Reich und Schicksal der Germanen,”
“Die Atlanter, Volk aus dem Bernsteinland”,
“Die R├╝ckkehr der Herakliden”).

But his first books “Das entr├Ątselte Atlantis” and “…und doch: Atlantis
entr├Ątselt !” were published by “Union Deutsche Verlagsgesellschaft,
Stuttgart”.

And one or two of his books (at least “Die Philister das unbekannte Volk,
Lehrmeister und Widersacher der Israeliten”) were published by
“(Otto-)Zeller-Verlag, Osnabr├╝ck” and “Atlantis…” and “…und doch…” were
reprintet by Otto Zeller in the 80’s.

I guess that the “Deutschen Orient-Gesellschaft”, whose results are also
published by Otto Zeller is also an extreme right organisation. That’s
probably why the “Ausw├Ąrtige Amt” (Ministry for foreign affairs) jonis them
in organizing (paying) exhibitions like this one:
http://www.tu-harburg.de/allgemein/poe/spektr1098_tallmu.html

> He took up the theses by Heinrich Pudor, yet without mentioning
> his name. Why? He obviously tried to give a clean, whitewashed
> version of that Nazi phantasma. All that makes him de facto
> a Nazi – whether he was an official or a secret member of the
> NSDAP and/or the SS or if he stood on no such list, or if he
> stays on a list which is hidden and lost somewhere in a Russian
> archive.

No it doesn’t.

If the Nazis would have found Penicillinum when trying to find some poison
they could kill some people more with (or something like that) –
would we all be Nazis because we use (it as medcine) ?

> I asked you many times: tell me just one single valid idea
> by Juergen Spanuth, but you avoided to give me an answer.

> You post an average of a dozen messages a day. Too much
> for someone who has a very poor idea of present-day
> archaeology.

This isn’t important at all.
Even if he didn’t find a single “valid idea” HIMSELF, this doesn’t matter.

Btw, Spanuth never claimed to be a scholar or scientist. He was a vicar who
studied also archaeology, ancient history and ancient languages.

He was a laymen – like Schliemann – who nevertheless found Troy (what would
you do without him ­čśë ) and who was called names by SCHOLARS and SCIENTIST
that were havier than just “stupid”, “liar” or “biased”.

Most part of Spanuths books consist of quotations of scientist / scholars on
many fields. Spanuth joind all their results to a complete and consistent
image of an important part of the early european history.

And not all of these scientist were Nazis. Kehnscherper e.g. (expert on the
“V├Âlkerwanderung”) lived in the DDR and published a little book “Auf der
Suche nach Atlantis” where he comes to the conclusion that Spanuths Theory is
the only one that might be correct. If some “decider” would have thought that
his book propagates “Nazi phantasma” they wouldn’t let publish him this book.

The “communists” were surely quite “sensitive” for these things. But on the
other hand, they havn’t been so prejudiced against the Teutons like YOU and
many scholars in Germany. After the end of 3. Reich, there was something like
a “Germanen-Tabu” in the BRD.

Harald Henkel


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Robert10/7/99

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Harald Henkel wrote:

Harald Henkel wrote:

– show quoted text –

> Eric Stevens wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:27:52 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:
> > >Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
> > >and what you are up to.
> >
> > I wish I understood what you meant by that.
>
> He meant you are a Nazi like Spanuth – and probably me, too ;-))
>
> Harald Henkel

That’s what you guys get for arguing with an obnoxious leftist who is
obviously the only one with an agenda in this debate.

Robert

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Eric Stevens10/8/99

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On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:13:21 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:13:21 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
wrote:

– show quoted text –

>Eric Stevens wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:27:52 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:
>> >Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
>> >and what you are up to.
>>
>> I wish I understood what you meant by that.
>
>He meant you are a Nazi like Spanuth – and probably me, too ;-))
>

On 5th October I replied to Franz Gnaedinger and said “I suppose, next
thing, you will have me a member of the Waffen SS”. If you are
correct, he is following protocol and enrolling me in the Nazi party
first.


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Eric Stevens10/8/99

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But did Pudor name it first? I have a suspicion that this idea has been hanging around since the 19th century.

On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:37:26 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <lWP8N55QtNOsbl…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> He certainly doesn’t seem to make any reference to Pudor in the
>> English edition, that I can see. He does quote a large number of
>> sources. Maybe he was able to construct his argument without quoting
>> Pudor?
>
>(Me:)
>
>> >Not mentioning the source, the main source, does this make
>> >one a scholar?
>
>(Eric:)
>
>> Only if Pudor was the main source, and he Spanuth seems to have done
>> quite well without mentioning him.
>
>Atlantis = Helgoland was Heinrich Pudor’s thesis. If someone
>takes up a thesis by someone else, he or she is absolutely
>obliged to name the author who proposed it first.

But did Pudor name it first? I have a suspicion that this idea has
been hanging around since the 19th century.

>Or else
>that someone ain’t a scholar. And when you go on telling me
>such nonsense as above you prove that you have not the least
>idea of science.

Please don’t confuse science and scholarship.

>
>> >Anyway, you finally made clear where you stay
>> >and what you are up to.
>>
>> I wish I understood what you meant by that.
>
>Your ideas of the past are incompatible with the numerous
>findings of present-day archaeology, but well compatible
>with the ideaology of any neo-Nazi group.

You seem to make a practice of insisting that I adopt ideas before I
investigate them. Well, I don’t. If I do adopt an idea it only is
**after** I have investigated it. In fact, in this area, I have
rejected far more ideas than I have adopted.


>
>(Eric, when I remembered him of my questions regarding
>the Steingrund:)
>
>> That surprises me. Can you give me the refrence?
>
>Go to Deja (link below) and Power Search and look up the post
>wherein I mentioned the addresses of Dr. Willi Kramer. In that
>post I asked you four questions. You didn’t answer them. You
>spam our scientific forum with a dozen mostly meaningless posts
>a day and can’t even remember what you wrote.

Now you have made clear what you are talking about, from my own
archive I have identified the article to which you refer as:

   From: cir…@access.ch
   Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
   Subject: Re: Atlantis Found on Discovery
   Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 08:16:41 GMT
   Organization: Deja.com – Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
   Lines: 64
   Message-ID: <7qvt92$9jk$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>

I won’t quote the questions as I will quote them _and_my_answers_ as
follows:

Begin quote:
————–
From: stev…@iprolink.co.nz (Eric Stevens)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Atlantis Found on Discovery
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 11:15:02 GMT
Organization: Forensic Engineer
Message-ID: <37d39dd0…@news.iprolink.co.nz>

 — snip —

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 08:16:41 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <37d03d44…@news.iprolink.co.nz>,
>  stev…@iprolink.co.nz (Eric Stevens) wrote:
>
>> Actually his book ‘Atlantis of the North’ contains a very good
>> photograph of fitted stones which he lables as “Underwater
>> photograph of fitted flint slabs on the ‘Steingrund’ (photo
>> Spanuth)’.
>
>I saw the photogryphs a year ago in a book by Juergen Spanuth
>and found them disappointing. Some questions:

I presume these are the stones which you have previously said didn’t
exist and he didn’t find. Now you say you saw the photograph a year
ago?

Tsk tsk.
>
>a) Are there any marks on the slabs testifying to a manmade
>origin?

All I can tell from the photograph is that they appear to be fitted.
>
>b) if manmade, how old are they? the flint mine in question
>might have been used in neolithic times and later on as well
>- a Marilyn Monroe statue carved out of Carrara marble doesn’t
>prove that Marilyn Monroe was a Renaissance beauty …

Apparently they (or others like them) were found in 1943 so I guess
that makes them at leats 56 years old.   ­čÖé
Apart from that I don’t know. The answer would be to follow up Peter
Wieperts original finding.
>
>c) is there a sunken town or palace? an intelligible scheme
>of the slabs? or may it simply be that a Roman “Prahm” loaded
>with flint slabs sunk in front of Helgoland?

It seems unlikely unless the bilge was lined with fitted flint slabs
from a quarry on a hill near Alborg.
>
>d) The Germans have very good archaeologists and the best
>equipement. In 1983 they founded a commission for underwater
>archaeology. It would be easy for them to examine and confirm
>Juergen Spanuth’s discovery. How come that we never see s aside
>scan sonar picture of the place in question? How come that I
>never saw that “Steingrund” in a book of serious archaeology?
>Mind that: Juergen Spanuth found Atlantis and no one cares …

I am not presently concerned with whether what Spanuth ‘found’ (not
that he claims to have found it) is Atlantis or not. All I am
interested in is whether or not it exists. How come you have never
seen it in a book of serious archaeology? I can’t answer that. Perhaps
you averted your eyes?

— comment re Dr. Willi Kramer Dr. Helmut Schlichtherle snipped —-

Eric Stevens
——————–
End Quote

I found this very readily as I had specially marked it so that I could
return to the addresses of Dr. Willi Kramer and Dr. Helmut
Schlichtherle to enable me to write to them.

You will see that, contrary to your assertion, I did answer your
questions and the fact that I did not go into chapter and verse is due
only to the fact that I have not yet found out for myself.

>
>(Eric:)
>
>> You do of course remember that, when it came to the transfer of facts,
>> most of your contribution has been along the line of “tell me just one
>> single valid idea by Juergen Spanuth” interspersed with cries of
>> “poppycock!”.
>
>Really, you are a fool. I can only repeat myself. When I rave
>over something I give people a summary and recommend books
>and go into every detail if someone is interested and asks me
>a question and spend a day in a library just to answer a difficult
>one. But you are not willing to tell me anything on that Steingrund,

You too are a fool. I have already told you that I do not yet know
anything to tell you. I have always been enquiring.

>and you can’t tell me one single valid idea by Juergen Spanuth.
>I am not obliged to render his work, I had a look at it and found
>only poppycock. I read articles and books by true archaeologists
>(who are never mentioned in this forum of silly archaeology),
>and speak about  t h e i r  work.
>
>(Eric:)
>
>> Now, when you previously wrote:
>>
>> >Gold powder and foil gold strewn on fresh plaster.
>>
>> I asked you “Make up your mind. Gold foil is **old**. Gold (true)
>> powder is, as far as I know, very new. Which was it? What you call
>> powder may have been flakes of gold foil”.
>
>Must I give you the German quote?

If this is what you based your statement on, it would be helpful.


>
>  “Goldstaub und Blattgold in den Stuckfussboden gestreut”
>
>     Gold = gold
>     Staub = dust, powder
>     und = and
>     Blattgold – foil gold
>     gestreut in – strewn into (or on)
>     Stuck – stucco, plaster of Paris, plaster
>     Fussboden – floor
>
>If you would read journals or magazines of true archaeology
>instead of pseudo-sc├«entific stuff you couldn’t have missed
>the sensational finding by Dr. Edgar Pusch at Pi-Ramesse.

Very well, He has called it ‘gold powder’. Do you know the shape of
the particles? This is what I have been asking about from the first.
Fine gold flakes made by beating gold foil have been known for a long
time and it may be that this is what was called ‘goldstaub’. However,
a true powser has roughly spherical particles and flows like flour,
and the ability to make this in gold is relatively new, as far as I
know. That is why I was most interested in the possibility that the
Ancient Egyptians had some way of making a true gold powder.

Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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cir…@access.ch10/8/99

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In article <7tikio$2s$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,

In article <7tikio$2s$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,


  Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:
> In article <7tfs80$vvr$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   cir…@access.ch wrote:
> — snip —
>
> > Eberhard Zangger writes in his new book
> > (Die Zukunft der Vergangenheit, Archaeologie im 21. Jahrhundert,
> > Schneekluth-Verlag Muenchen 1998) that several brass artefacts
> > prove that brass was produced already 2000 years before the
> > Roman era while chemical analyzes of those artefacts reveal
> > that the brass came from Troy.
>
> So what ?
> There are peaces of jewelry and small carved animals made of amber,
> found at J├╝tland that date to 6000 BC.

Why only a meagre “So what?” You asked me to give you any evidence
of the existence or production of brass before 600 BC. How can you
go on believing that oreichalkos /aurichalcit was amber?

> > I don’t know how the Tojan brass was identified, Zangger speaks
> > of a chemical method. There is also a new method that uses a laser
> > to evaporate a few molecules of inclusions that can then be analysed
> > by means of a spectrometer. This method allows to carbon date (C14)
> > gold and other metalls.
>
> Oh, that’s intersting. Zangger gets carbon out of gold!
> An alchemist ! No sorry, those tried the other way round.
> ;-))

Every metal has small inclusions of other materials, also organic
ones that can now be evaporated by means of a laser and analyzed
by means of a spectrometer and radiocarbon-dated. Close your eyes
and the world is gone; ignore the new methods and they will not
exist; ignore archaeology, philology, mineralogy and metallurgy,
and oreichalkos / aurichalcit will be amber …

> Ok, I didn’t read Zanggers book yet. But I surely will,
> when I have some time.

Just visit a bookstore and look up the pages 240-242,
you will need only 5 minutes, less time than for posting
a message to sci.archaeology. By the way, ‘sci’ means
scientific, and people who show up in a scientific forum
are supposed to read the new scientific literature.

> But I read a somewhat critical review of the book by some
> archaeologist of the University at T├╝bingen whe belongs to
> the “Project Troia” who do  excavations in Troy since about
> 10 years.

Professor Manfred Korfmann is envious of Eberhard Zangger,
yet it was Zangger who told him years ago that Troy wasn’t
just an acropolis, what made Korfmann rave of enthusiasm.
Since then Troy grew by a factor of 30 – the town only,
not to mention the supposed buildings, canals, harbour
basins and so on in the plain of Troy (namely the Troas).
Manfred Korfmann was intriguing against Zangger and tried
to cancel his geoarchaeological mission to the Troas,
but luckily enough he did not succeed.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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cir…@access.ch10/8/99

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In article <7tilfs$n0$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>, Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote: (Me: replying to Eric:)

In article <7tilfs$n0$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:

(Me: replying to Eric:)

> > I asked you many times: tell me just one single valid idea
> > by Juergen Spanuth, but you avoided to give me an answer.
> > You post an average of a dozen messages a day. Too much
> > for someone who has a very poor idea of present-day
> > archaeology.

(Harald:)

> This isn’t important at all. Even if he didn’t find a single
> “valid idea” HIMSELF, this doesn’t matter.

So tell me one single valid idea in the book by Hitler-admirer
Heinrich Pudor who was the first one to state Atlantis = Helgoland
in a book he wrote mainly in the year 1931 and that was published
in the year 1936:

  Voelker aus Gottes Athem, Atlantis – Helgoland,
  das arisch-germanische Rassenhochzucht- und
  Kolonisationsmutterland

My translation:

  Peoples of God’s Own Breath, Atlantis – Helgoland,


  the Aryan-Germanian Motherland of Racial Select Breeding
  and Colonization

> Most part of Spanuths books consist of quotations of scientist /
> scholars on many fields.

Only that he doesn’t mention his main source, namely Heinrich
Pudor who came up with the Atlantis = Helgoland thesis and
who called Helgoland / Atlantis “Heimat der Hellenen und
auch der Roemer” – home of the Greeks and Romans.

> And not all of these scientist were Nazis. Kehnscherper e.g.
> (expert on the “V├Âlkerwanderung”) lived in the DDR and published
> a little book “Auf der Suche nach Atlantis” where he comes to the
> conclusion that Spanuths Theory is the only one that might be correct.
> If some “decider” would have thought that  his book propagates “Nazi
> phantasma” they wouldn’t let publish him this book.

The DDR took over one million of NSDAP and SS members, integrating
them without any problem into their system.

> The “communists” were surely quite “sensitive” for these things.
> But on the other hand, they havn’t been so prejudiced against the
> Teutons like YOU and many scholars in Germany. After the end of
> 3. Reich, there was something like  a “Germanen-Tabu” in the BRD.

Why then do I propagate the work of so many German scholars here
in sci.archaeology? To mention a few names: Eberhard Zangger,
Derk Ohlenroth, Walther Hinz, Rainer Stadelmann, Guenter Dreyer,
Klaus Schmidt, Marie E.P. Koenig, Erik Hornung … ?

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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In article <4Gj9N2PdZafWH9…@4ax.com>, Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

In article <4Gj9N2PdZafWH9…@4ax.com>,
  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:

> But did Pudor name it first? I have a suspicion that this idea
> has been hanging around since the 19th century.

Heinrich Pudor was the first one to say that HELGOLAND was
Atlantis. SS-chief Himmler let carry out submarine measurements
in front of Helgoland, and then again Juergen Spanuth, in the year
1953, dived in front of Helgoland, searching the sunken town Basilea,
alleged capital of Atlantis.

(Eric, quoting my old questions on the “Steingrund”:)

> >a) Are there any marks on the slabs testifying to a manmade
> >origin?
>
> All I can tell from the photograph is that they appear to be fitted.

Hence you can’t tell me anything about manmade marks.

> >b) if manmade, how old are they? the flint mine in question
> >might have been used in neolithic times and later on as well
> >- a Marilyn Monroe statue carved out of Carrara marble doesn’t
> >prove that Marilyn Monroe was a Renaissance beauty …
>
> Apparently they (or others like them) were found in 1943 so I guess
> that makes them at leats 56 years old.   ­čÖé

A joke, but no answer to my question.

> Apart from that I don’t know. The answer would be to follow up Peter
> Wieperts original finding.

So tell us anything about Wiepert’s original finding.

> >c) is there a sunken town or palace? an intelligible scheme
> >of the slabs? or may it simply be that a Roman “Prahm” loaded
> >with flint slabs sunk in front of Helgoland?
>
> It seems unlikely unless the bilge was lined with fitted flint slabs
> from a quarry on a hill near Alborg.

Your only argument is the word ‘fitted’. What does it mean?
I don’t ask for a definition of the word but for a description
of the allegedly fitted stones, and not only what you believe
to see when you look at a photograph. By the way: there are many
‘sunken towns’ in the Mediterranean that are in fact sunken ships
that lost their freight (pillars, blocks, statues …)

> >d) The Germans have very good archaeologists and the best
> >equipement. In 1983 they founded a commission for underwater
> >archaeology. It would be easy for them to examine and confirm
> >Juergen Spanuth’s discovery. How come that we never see s aside
> >scan sonar picture of the place in question? How come that I
> >never saw that “Steingrund” in a book of serious archaeology?
> >Mind that: Juergen Spanuth found Atlantis and no one cares …
>
> I am not presently concerned with whether what Spanuth ‘found’ (not
> that he claims to have found it) is Atlantis or not. All I am
> interested in is whether or not it exists. How come you have never
> seen it in a book of serious archaeology? I can’t answer that. Perhaps
> you averted your eyes?
>
> — comment re Dr. Willi Kramer Dr. Helmut Schlichtherle snipped —-
>
> Eric Stevens
> ——————–
> End Quote

Why don’t you tell me a book where I could find more about
the “Steingrund”? Your replies almost always lack any useful
informations.

> I found this very readily as I had specially marked it so that I could
> return to the addresses of Dr. Willi Kramer and Dr. Helmut
> Schlichtherle to enable me to write to them.

Why don’t you simply write them and ask them about the Steingrund
and other eventual findings in the German Sea and around Helgoland?
instead of sending a dozen meaningless posts a day to our forum?

> You will see that, contrary to your assertion, I did answer your
> questions and the fact that I did not go into chapter and verse is due
> only to the fact that I have not yet found out for myself.

No. You did not answer my questions. Having read all your lines
I don’t know anything about the Steingrund.

> Very well, He has called it ‘gold powder’. Do you know the shape of
> the particles? This is what I have been asking about from the first.
> Fine gold flakes made by beating gold foil have been known for a long
> time and it may be that this is what was called ‘goldstaub’. However,
> a true powser has roughly spherical particles and flows like flour,
> and the ability to make this in gold is relatively new, as far as I
> know. That is why I was most interested in the possibility that the
> Ancient Egyptians had some way of making a true gold powder.

You are not even able to read. Goldstaub und Blattgold mean
gold dust or gold powder and foil gold: dust/powder and flakes,
both. PLEASE stop spamming our forum of scientific archaeology,
use your time for reading some truly scientific journals and
books and then write some well considered, readable and clearly
layed-out messages – for example a detailled and informative
description of the “Steingrund”.

Franz Gnaedinger  Zurich  cir…@access.ch


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Harald Henkel10/8/99

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Translate message to English Translating… Translated by Google – German ? English –  View Original  

(me) ­čśë > > I have several statements of Spanuth that show very clearly > > what he was thinking about the Nazi. > Tell us. Well I have it only in German (of course): >From Arn Strohmeyers book, I mentioned in some posting before, pages 118f: Interv

cir…@access.ch wrote:

> > (me)
> (him)
(me) ­čśë

> > I have several statements of Spanuth that show very clearly
> > what he was thinking about the Nazi.

> Tell us.

Well I have it only in German (of course):
>From Arn Strohmeyers book, I mentioned in some posting before, pages
118f:
Interview between AS and JS.

“Nach Hitler und seinen Verbrechen sei es heute unm├Âglich, etwas
Positives
├╝ber die Germanen zu sagen – etwa, da├č sie an der Entstehung des
Griechentums
mitsch├Âpferisch beteiligt waren und schon in ihrer Heimat (dem
bronzezeitlichen Atlantis)
eine gro├če Kultur hatten. Ich frage J├╝rgen Spanuth direkt, ob er mit
seinen B├╝chern einem
“nordischen Rassismus oder Pangermanismus” das Wort reden wolle und die
rassisch und
kulturelle ├ťberlegenheit des Germanentums predige. “Das ist doch
v├Âlliger Unsinn”, wirft er
ein, “nat├╝rlich ist auch nicht alles, was zwischen 1933 und 1945 in
diesem Bereich erforscht
worden ist, falsch gewesen. Da ist doch auch viel Vern├╝nftiges
herausgekommen, was Bestand hat.
Es haben in dieser Zeit doch auch seri├Âse Leute gearbeitet.”

Ich beharre dennoch: Ist er nicht doch der Gefahr eines rassitischen
Pangermanismus erlegen ?
“Nein, das kann ich nicht sehen. Ich setzt ja die anderen Hochkulturen
dieser Zeit ja nicht
herab: Mykene, das Hethiter-Reich und Ägypten. Nur: die germanische
Kultur der Bronzezeit
war eben auch eine Hochkultur. …””

> Spanuth NEVER worked for the Nazis. Neither directly nor
> indirectly.

> You cherish the same phantasma that you share
> with Adolf Hitler, Hitler-admirer Heinrich Pudor who located
> Atlantis in the German Sea, SS-member and Himmler-protege Herman
> Wirth, Wehrmacht soldier Juergen Spanuth who followed Heinrich
> Pudor, and further authors of the Grabert Verlag who hated the
> old saying EX ORIENTE LUX while they believed that the ancient
> Greeks have been Germans,

EX ORIENTE LUX is surely true for the Middle Ages, when big parts of
Europe lay in some agony,
while the Musilms or lets say eastern peoples had high cultures.

> thus justifying WORLD WAR II – all
> of Europe was German right from the begin, so Hitler and the
> Wehrmacht were entitled to conquer whole Europe …

That’s a really sad part of our history but a clear misuse und
misinterpretation of scientific results.

— snip —

> > The similiarities between greec and teutonic mythology are fact.
> > And in greece this mythology developed mainly after 1200 BC while
> > the teutonic mythology is much older
> > (as far as I know, but you have probably newer information :-7 )
> >
> > Harald Henkel

> Harald, you are a fool, and you know nothing of archaeology.
> Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the Phaistos Disk and you
> will see that Greek mythology and writing was already fully
> developed in around 1650 BC.

Well, after Zanggers book, perhaps.

Harald Henkel

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Eric Stevens10/8/99

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True. But then something happened about 1200 BCE and there seems to be no general agreement about what. It was several centuries before a new Greek culture (with possibly new Greeks) with a new system of writing and a new history emerged from the rui

On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 06:44:01 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>Harald, you are a fool, and you know nothing of archaeology.
>Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the Phaistos Disk and you
>will see that Greek mythology and writing was already fully
>developed in around 1650 BC.

True. But then something happened about 1200 BCE and there seems to be
no general agreement about what. It was several centuries before a new
Greek culture (with possibly new Greeks) with a new system of writing
and a new history emerged from the ruins.

Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Harald Henkel10/8/99

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Well, here’s my translation of Critias 114d/e: Most things needed for living the island offered itself. First of all, all sorts of solid and meltable things that could be digged out in mines, (*1) (and) the oreichalkos, the material that is only know

cir…@access.ch wrote:

> Plato clearly
> says that oreichalkos was a metal.

Well, here’s my translation of Critias 114d/e:

Most things needed for living the island offered itself.
First of all, all sorts of solid and meltable things that could be
digged out in mines,
(*1) (and) the oreichalkos, the material that is only known by name
today, but which was
appreciated almost as much as gold by those people – it could be digged
out of the earth
at many palces of the island – (*2)and a big qantity of all things which
the wood (or forest) delivered
for the work of carpendters.

At (*1) and (*2) begins a new part of the sentence.
Each starts with “kai” which means “and” or “also”.
Another word for “among which” or “including” does not exist in Platons
text.

So if you would translate (*1) as “among which” or “including” (which
would imply that oreichalkos is a metal),
then you would have to translate (*2) also as “amoung which” or
“including”.

This would mean that carpenters work with metal !
That’s genious ! I bet you get the Nobel Prize for that one. ­čśë

Critias 116b

“hoion aloiph├¬i proschr├┤menoi”

You seem to translate this as a “mixture of plaster and metal powder
(copper)” (including the text before).

But for “aloiph├¬i” Perseus sais: “anything used for anointing,
hog’s-lard, grease, unguent”

The problem with ancient greek seems to be, that the interpretation of
some words is based mainly on the context of only one occurrence like:
LSJ: (aloiph-ê)
3. paint, varnish, etc., Plat. Criti. 116b, cf. IG22.463.85, LXX
Mi.7.11, etc.; ne├┤s Polyaen. 5.34.


By the way: Troy <-> Atlantis

Atlantis lay at the Ôkeanos

II. later the name of the great Outward Sea, opp. to the Inward or
Mediterranean (thalassa, pontos), Hdt. Il.cc., Pind. P. 4.26, au=Pind.
P. 4.251=lr; tên
Eurôpên kai tên Asian kai tên Libuên nêsous einai has perirrein kuklôi
ton Ôkeanon Theopomp.Hist.Fr.74(a), cf. Arist.Mu.393a17; Ô. ho boreios,
ho
hesperios, ho kata mesêmbrian, Plu.Mar.11, ti=Plu. Ant.61, Diod. 17.96;
Prettanikos, Germanikos, Kantabrios, etc., Ptol.Geog.2.3.3, au=Ptol.
Geog.
2.3.4, au=Ptol. Geog. 2.6.3, al.

The capital was on an island.

Troy is an island in the okeanos ?


In your openion oreichalkos was brass and / or aurichalcit.
Zangger sais he found brass that is at least 4300 years old (before the
roman aera).
If this is true, we have to rewrite all the bronze age history.

You quoted a text of Hesiod (I think) where the process for the
production of oreichalkos =(?) brass is described.
But this text obviously doesn’t refer to auricalcit, because copper has
to be added separatly.
And why does the production of brass include iron ?

How is brass made today ? Is there anybody who can help on this ?

Btw, how many C-12 and C-14 atoms are needed to get a “solid” value for
the date ?
And where does the C-12/C-14 in the metal/alloy come from ?
Can it be that it comes from “something” that died long before it was
mixed in the alloy ?

Platon sais oreichalkos was appreciated almost as much as gold (perhaps
even more than gold).
Brass, as far as I know gets a green “Patina” (don’t know the englich
word).
I cannot imagine that the people liked a metal like this almost as much
as gold.

But it is quite obvious that the people in northern europe as well as in
the south liked amber very much,
and the latter payed it with gold that was found (together with amber)
in big quantities in graves in northern europe,
while there were not many places where gold could be found naturally in
the north.
So it had to come from elsewhere.

These are facts that cannot be falsified by new archaeologial results by
Zangger (at Troy) or who ever.

But I orderd Zanggers book on Amazon.de just now !


But to get back to Platon:

> Do you believe that he didn’t know that chalkos was copper, hence a
metal?

We don’t talk about chalkos, we talk about oreichalkos.

I have to repeat it:
The Atlanteans told the Egypts about this material, they gave them a
name and a description and probably
the Egypts had “some” amber at that time.
But about 600 years later, they didn’t know any more what the name and
the description were standing for.
That’s what the priest tells Solon.
So Solon couldn’t know either what this material was !
And platon couldn’t write it WAS metal. Perhaps he guessed himself that
it was a metal,
but he definitly didn’t write it WAS one.

> Aristotle wrote
> that there have been stelae made of oreichalkos, and so on,
> and so on, and so on.

You can make stelae etc. also from amber.


Harald Henkel

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Harald Henkel10/8/99

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cir…@access.ch wrote: — snip — > > So what ?

cir…@access.ch wrote:

— snip —

> > So what ?


> > There are peaces of jewelry and small carved animals made of amber,
> > found at J├╝tland that date to 6000 BC.

Add according to Nationalmuseum Kopenhagen

> Why only a meagre “So what?” You asked me to give you any evidence
> of the existence or production of brass before 600 BC.

Sorry, was preparing the posting below, 2. answer to yours from Wed. 8:44.

> How can you
> go on believing that oreichalkos /aurichalcit was amber?

Very good I can. ;-))

— snip —

> Professor Manfred Korfmann is envious of Eberhard Zangger,
> yet it was Zangger who told him years ago that Troy wasn’t
> just an acropolis, what made Korfmann rave of enthusiasm.
> Since then Troy grew by a factor of 30 – the town only,
> not to mention the supposed buildings, canals, harbour
> basins and so on in the plain of Troy (namely the Troas).
> Manfred Korfmann was intriguing against Zangger and tried
> to cancel his geoarchaeological mission to the Troas,
> but luckily enough he did not succeed.

The article was not by Prof. Korfmann (but probably of one of his team
members).
I asked Prof. Korfmann about Zannger – but he didn’t answer me. Now I
understand why ;-))

Harald Henkel

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Harald Henkel10/8/99

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cir…@access.ch wrote: — snip — > (Harald:)

cir…@access.ch wrote:

— snip —

> (Harald:)


>
> > This isn’t important at all. Even if he didn’t find a single
> > “valid idea” HIMSELF, this doesn’t matter.
>
> So tell me one single valid idea in the book by Hitler-admirer
> Heinrich Pudor who was the first one to state Atlantis = Helgoland
> in a book he wrote mainly in the year 1931 and that was published
> in the year 1936:

Well, I didn’t read this book, so I don’t know what “reasons” Pudor gives
for his claim.

But I read Spanuths books and he doesn’t need Pudor for his claim that
Helgoland (or an island to the east of Helgoland) was Atlantis.
Anyway it’s not a “good” scientific style, but don’t tell me all scientists
/ scholars use a good scientific style and give all sources of their claims.

— snip —-

> > And not all of these scientist were Nazis. Kehnscherper e.g.
> > (expert on the “V├Âlkerwanderung”) lived in the DDR and published
> > a little book “Auf der Suche nach Atlantis” where he comes to the
> > conclusion that Spanuths Theory is the only one that might be correct.
> > If some “decider” would have thought that  his book propagates “Nazi
> > phantasma” they wouldn’t let publish him this book.
>
> The DDR took over one million of NSDAP and SS members, integrating
> them without any problem into their system.

May be.
But I never heard Kehnscherper was accused of being a Nazi.
Do you have a source for this – as you have for Spanuth being SS-member ?

Harald Henkel

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Harald Henkel10/8/99

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Eric Stevens wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 06:44:01 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:
>
> >Harald, you are a fool, and you know nothing of archaeology.
> >Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the Phaistos Disk and you
> >will see that Greek mythology and writing was already fully
> >developed in around 1650 BC.
>
> True. But then something happened about 1200 BCE and there seems to be
> no general agreement about what. It was several centuries before a new
> Greek culture (with possibly new Greeks) with a new system of writing
> and a new history emerged from the ruins.

I would bet a zillion to one, that nothing happend about 1200 BCE –
according to Mr. Gnaedinger and Mr. Zanngger.

Harald Henkel

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Eric Stevens10/9/99

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On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:52:18 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE> wrote: >Eric Stevens wrote:

On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:52:18 +0200, Harald Henkel <HHe…@REPLY.DE>
wrote:

>Eric Stevens wrote:

– show quoted text –


>
>> On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 06:44:01 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:
>>
>> >Harald, you are a fool, and you know nothing of archaeology.
>> >Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth on the Phaistos Disk and you
>> >will see that Greek mythology and writing was already fully
>> >developed in around 1650 BC.
>>
>> True. But then something happened about 1200 BCE and there seems to be
>> no general agreement about what. It was several centuries before a new
>> Greek culture (with possibly new Greeks) with a new system of writing
>> and a new history emerged from the ruins.
>
>I would bet a zillion to one, that nothing happend about 1200 BCE –
>according to Mr. Gnaedinger and Mr. Zanngger.
>

Zangger has something, even if it was only a local flood.


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

Show trimmed content

Eric Stevens10/9/99

 Other recipients:   

I’m glad you now understand that.

On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 08:30:43 GMT, cir…@access.ch wrote:

>In article <4Gj9N2PdZafWH9…@4ax.com>,
>  Eric Stevens <stev…@iprolink.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> But did Pudor name it first? I have a suspicion that this idea
>> has been hanging around since the 19th century.
>
>Heinrich Pudor was the first one to say that HELGOLAND was
>Atlantis. SS-chief Himmler let carry out submarine measurements
>in front of Helgoland, and then again Juergen Spanuth, in the year
>1953, dived in front of Helgoland, searching the sunken town Basilea,
>alleged capital of Atlantis.
>
>(Eric, quoting my old questions on the “Steingrund”:)
>
>> >a) Are there any marks on the slabs testifying to a manmade
>> >origin?
>>
>> All I can tell from the photograph is that they appear to be fitted.
>
>Hence you can’t tell me anything about manmade marks.

I’m glad you now understand that.


>
>> >b) if manmade, how old are they? the flint mine in question
>> >might have been used in neolithic times and later on as well
>> >- a Marilyn Monroe statue carved out of Carrara marble doesn’t
>> >prove that Marilyn Monroe was a Renaissance beauty …
>>
>> Apparently they (or others like them) were found in 1943 so I guess
>> that makes them at leats 56 years old.   ­čÖé
>
>A joke, but no answer to my question.

It’s the only answer I have got.


>
>> Apart from that I don’t know. The answer would be to follow up Peter
>> Wieperts original finding.
>
>So tell us anything about Wiepert’s original finding.

I will, when I find out. Do you know anything about it?


>
>> >c) is there a sunken town or palace? an intelligible scheme
>> >of the slabs? or may it simply be that a Roman “Prahm” loaded
>> >with flint slabs sunk in front of Helgoland?
>>
>> It seems unlikely unless the bilge was lined with fitted flint slabs
>> from a quarry on a hill near Alborg.
>
>Your only argument is the word ‘fitted’. What does it mean?

Like pieces in a jig-saw puzzle. The stones are irregulary shaped and
are generally fitted together as one would expect when forming stone
paving.

>I don’t ask for a definition of the word but for a description
>of the allegedly fitted stones, and not only what you believe
>to see when you look at a photograph.

When my only source of information is a photograph, what makes you
think I can tell you more than I believe to see when I look at the
photograph?

To put you out of you misery, and to also help answer the question of
whether or not the idea started with Pudor that Atlantis lay of
Helgoland, I quote from page 45 of the english edition of Spanuth’s
‘Atlantis of the North’:

Begin quote:
—————–
        In the year 1943, the prehistorian Peter Wiepert, honorary
member of Kiel University and holder of the rarely awarded Kiet
University Medal, together with divers belonging to the then German
Navy, discovered on the Steingrund ‘the remains of a Germanic royal
fortress’, and sent me a detailed report on it.
        In the course of five subsequent diving expeditions that have
been made on the Steingrund since 1953, under the author’s direction,
remains of settlement have also been discovered.  These include the
outlines of walls, hewn stones, and flat pieces of flint.  The latter,
according to investigations made by archaeologists, mineralogists and
geologists, are of human workmanship.  The divers report that they’had
been knocked out of place’, and lay with the smooth side up and the
rough side down, flat on the Steingrund.  Mineralogical tests
(Professor H. Rose, test report, 1 0 July 1953) have shown that these
flints come from a quarry on a hill near Alborg, which was in use in
the Neolithic period but went out of operation at the end of the
Bronze Age.  The Danish archaeologist johannes Brbndsted wrote of
these flint mines: ‘In this hill were discovered five deep shafts,
with galleries and floors where the flint was worked.  They provide
conclusive evidence that there was a flint-mining industry in this
area, a centre of trade and export’ in the copper-dagger period
(according to Br6ndsted about 1800-1500 BC) (1960, v. 1, p. 334).
        Divers from the Heligoland Institute of Marine Biology have
also found these flat flints on the Steingrund; they call them
‘Atlantis stones’
        (P.        Lippens 1974; HusumerIVachrichten, 10 September 1974).
        Similar flints were found by Olshausen and von Aschen in a
Bronze
        Age grave on the Heligoland plateau (Olshausen 1893, p. 500).
K. Kersten has found flint tiling on the walls of several Bronze Age,
graves on the island of Sylt (1935, p. 164ff.). Professor H. Rose
stated in his mineralogical report on the flints from the Steingrund,
‘The Atlanteans must have obtained them from Denmark’: that is,, 400
km over land and sea, since this is the distance between the Alborg
flint mines and Heligoland.
        This island, which lay in the shelter of the high rock mass
of’ Heligoland, was flooded over in the natural cataclysms at the end
ol’the Bronze Age.  During the recession of the North Sea which
occurred in the Iron Age it partly reappeared; a common enough event
on the Schieswig-Holstein coast.  The Greek geographer Marcellus said
of this re-emergence, citing ‘the oldest historians’, who had reported
the event: ‘The inhabitants of these islands, have preserved the
memory, handed down from their ancestors, of the great island of
Atlantis, which once existed in this area, and during many centuries
ruled over all the islands of the outer sea, and was sacred to
Poscidon.  The island of Atlantis was, they say, flooded over by the
sea and lost.  Where it once lay, there are now seven smaller and
three larger islands, of which the greatest is still sacred to
Poseidon.’ (Marcellus, Aethiopica, quoted in Proclus In Platonis
Timaeum commentarii’.)

        On this island the Christian missionaries, Wulfram (AD 689),
Willibrord (in 690), and Liudger (in 780-785), preached the Gospel.
They called it ‘Fositesland,’ because on it stood the principal shrine
of the Frisian god Fosite.

Alcuin, the teacher of Charlemagne, wrote in his Vita Willibrordi (ch.
1 0):

        Now while [Willibrord] was pursuing his journey, he came to a
certain island on the boundary between the Frisians and the Danes,
which the people of those parts call Fositesland, after a god named
Fosite, whom they worship and whose temples stand there.  This place
was held by the pagans in such great awe that none of the natives
would venture to meddle with any of the cattle that fed there nor with
anything else, nor would they dare draw water from the spring that
bubbled up there except in complete silence.

        Adam of Bremen described the site of this island precisely.

        The archbishop [Adalbert of Bremen] consecrated from among his
own clerics Rudolf for Schleswig, Wilhelm for Zealand, Ellbert (‘or
Fyn.  Elll)crt, a convert from piracy, is said to have been the first
to find the island of’Farria, which lies hidden in a deep recess of
the ocean in the mouth ol’the Elbe river, and, having built a
monastery there, to have made it habitable.  This island lies across
from Hadeln.  It is barely eight miles long by tour miles wide, and
its people use straw and the wreckage of ships for fuel… This island
produces crops in the greatest abundance and is an exceedingly rich
f’oster-mother for birds and cattle.  On it there is but one hill and
not a single tree.  It is hemmed in on all sides by very precipitous
crags that prohibit access except in one place, where also the water
is sweet.  All sailors hold the place in awe, especially, however,
pirates.  Hence it got the name by which it is called, ‘Heiligland’.
From the Vita of Saint Willibrord we learned that it was called
Fositesland and that it is situated on the boundary between the Danes
and the Frisians.’ (Adam of Bremen 4.3.)

        So this island was given various names: ‘Fositesland’,
‘Heiligland’, and ‘Farria’.  This latter name is derived by some
writers from the old wordfarre = a bull; by others from the Frisian
wordfeer – infertile or dry.  However the latter meaning contradicts
Adam of Bremen’s statement: ‘This island produces crops in the
greatest abundance.’ So we may translate ‘Farria’ as ‘bull island’.

————
End Quote

>By the way: there are many
>’sunken towns’ in the Mediterranean that are in fact sunken ships
>that lost their freight (pillars, blocks, statues …)
>
>> >d) The Germans have very good archaeologists and the best
>> >equipement. In 1983 they founded a commission for underwater
>> >archaeology. It would be easy for them to examine and confirm
>> >Juergen Spanuth’s discovery. How come that we never see s aside
>> >scan sonar picture of the place in question? How come that I
>> >never saw that “Steingrund” in a book of serious archaeology?
>> >Mind that: Juergen Spanuth found Atlantis and no one cares …
>>
>> I am not presently concerned with whether what Spanuth ‘found’ (not
>> that he claims to have found it) is Atlantis or not. All I am
>> interested in is whether or not it exists. How come you have never
>> seen it in a book of serious archaeology? I can’t answer that. Perhaps
>> you averted your eyes?
>>
>> — comment re Dr. Willi Kramer Dr. Helmut Schlichtherle snipped —-
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>> ——————–
>> End Quote
>
>Why don’t you tell me a book where I could find more about
>the “Steingrund”? Your replies almost always lack any useful
>informations.

I could say much the same to you. However, I am the one who has been
asking for information and you are the one who has been denying that
there is anything to find information about.


>
>> I found this very readily as I had specially marked it so that I could
>> return to the addresses of Dr. Willi Kramer and Dr. Helmut
>> Schlichtherle to enable me to write to them.
>
>Why don’t you simply write them and ask them about the Steingrund
>and other eventual findings in the German Sea and around Helgoland?
>instead of sending a dozen meaningless posts a day to our forum?

You obviously are not capable of extracting what meaning there is. I
have twice already (now three times) said I have written to them.


>
>> You will see that, contrary to your assertion, I did answer your
>> questions and the fact that I did not go into chapter and verse is due
>> only to the fact that I have not yet found out for myself.
>
>No. You did not answer my questions. Having read all your lines
>I don’t know anything about the Steingrund.

I could have told you that.


>
>> Very well, He has called it ‘gold powder’. Do you know the shape of
>> the particles? This is what I have been asking about from the first.
>> Fine gold flakes made by beating gold foil have been known for a long
>> time and it may be that this is what was called ‘goldstaub’. However,
>> a true powser has roughly spherical particles and flows like flour,
>> and the ability to make this in gold is relatively new, as far as I
>> know. That is why I was most interested in the possibility that the
>> Ancient Egyptians had some way of making a true gold powder.
>
>You are not even able to read. Goldstaub und Blattgold mean
>gold dust or gold powder

Gold dust is soemthing else again. I don’t expect you to know the
difference between gold powder, gold dust and gold flakes as, to you,
they are all the same.

        ——– snip ———-


Eric Stevens


There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into
two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

Show trimmed content

Bernd Pichulik10/11/99

 Other recipients:   

<cir…@access.ch> wrote in message news:7tk804$5c1$1@nnrp1.deja.com…


<cir…@access.ch> wrote in message news:7tk804$5c1$1@nnrp1.deja.com…


> In article <7tilfs$n0$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:
>


[SNIP]

>
> The DDR took over one million of NSDAP and SS members, integrating
> them without any problem into their system.


What’s your point Franz?

The GDR was not the only country that had the pleasure of happily
assimilating Nazis and war criminals. The USA (operation “Paper Clip”)
and the former Soviet Union were also very adept in putting them to “good
use”!


Bernd Pichulik

Show trimmed content

Sebastian Heimann10/15/99

 Other recipients:  div…@iafrica.com 

Now, now – don’t be too upset! My grandfather was a physician in a fairly thinly populated area – what is called a “Landarzt”. In his time, the doctor, the priest (whichever nomination), the mayor, and the occasional lawyer were the creme of village

– show quoted text –

Bernd Pichulik wrote:
>
> <cir…@access.ch> wrote in message news:7tk804$5c1$1@nnrp1.deja.com…
> > In article <7tilfs$n0$1…@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> >   Har…@Henkel.DAH.UUnet.DE wrote:
> >
>
> [SNIP]
>
> >
> > The DDR took over one million of NSDAP and SS members, integrating
> > them without any problem into their system.
>
> What’s your point Franz?
>
> The GDR was not the only country that had the pleasure of happily
> assimilating Nazis and war criminals. The USA (operation “Paper Clip”)
> and the former Soviet Union were also very adept in putting them to “good
> use”!
>
> Bernd Pichulik


Now, now – don’t be too upset!

My grandfather was a physician in a fairly thinly populated area – what
is called a “Landarzt”.
In his time, the doctor, the priest (whichever nomination), the mayor,
and the occasional lawyer were the creme of village society mostly
because they had the best education, and nearly all village people went
to one of them if they needed some advice.
My grandfather was monarchist and distrusted the Nazi deeply – and
neveretheless at the end of the war he was Party member! Why? In 1944 he
had the alternatives of joining the party – because he was important in
the village – or of joining the ranks of concentration camp inmates.
He had five children, was the only doctor within 50 km – what would you
have done?


He was one of the very few people who >knew< what happened in the
concentration camps – one day one SS-member from his village confided to
him in deepest secrecy – the man was not able to stand it any more, and
he also already was on the verge of being an alcoholic – the only way
for him to stand it was by being drunk.

Lot of people, however, and also lots of party members didn’t have the
slightest idea what really happened in the camps (in germany; nearly
nobody knew about the killing camps in poland)- there is even a joke
about it:
After being released from the camp, one former inmate was asked how it
was.
“Oh, not bad. Getting up at 8 am, we got breakfast and coffee etc., then
we had to work for 2-3 hours making paper bags (was often done by prison
inmates first half of the century), then we got lunch – and you could
get a second helping if you wished etc. …”
“My god, from Meyer who got released last month I’ve heard I’ve heard
real horror stories!”
“Ah, then I know why he’s back in the camp again”


Concerning the SS: Before the war, you had to be blond, blue-eyed, 1.80m
high, than you had good chanced to be >accepted< by the SS.

In second half of 1944, nearly any young male could have been >drafted<
to the SS – so it happened to a farmer in the next village where I grew
up.

I emphatically >do not< want to defent party members and especially not
the SS as a whole, but there were some cases who really didn`t have a
real choice.

This might have been the case with at least some of the scientists and
workers who got later shipped to USA and USSR (they weren’t asked, by
the way), as important people they often were pressured to join the
party, and it took lots of civil courage not to join the party – because
the consequences if you did not couldn’t be calculated.

Since I’ve read only this post, I don’t know where the discussion
started, but the really bad thing is that some powerful Nazis stayed in
power after the war in both germanies, up to the highest governmetal
posts.
In the GDR, one minister was a former high-ranking Nazi, and in Western
Germany there was at least one similar case, something to do either with
the secret servive or the army. (I’m afraid I remember neither name)
Both seemed to be indispensable because of their expertise and were
clever enough to “change their jacket”.

For both, I don’t know their beliefs during or after the war – so I do
not want to condemn them out of hand – but the precedent was very
dangerous.

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