Archive 2433

Published July 5, 2016

Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by Cypriot author NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed in a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of A

Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by Cypriot author

NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA)

The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed in a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of Atlantis”, which was published in 1995.

The book, with the revolutionary theory that Troy was not in Asia Minor, but in the Atlantic, between Europe and America, has reemerged after the recent publication of this theory by professor Enrico Metievic of the University of Peru.

Socratous told CNA that the Achaeans, having beaten the Trojans in battle, traveled to America and that both Homer and Plato narrate the same campaign, which was either called the Atlantic or Trojan campaign, as Troy was in Atlantis.

The Cypriot writer supports that Odysseus traveled from the Canary Islands to Gibraltar, past Sicily and Malta, to encounter Ithaca.

The winds then took him back to the African shores of Algeria, where the Lotus Eaters lived.

Odysseus then passed from Gibraltar once again and with the Ecuadorian Current arrived in Porto Rico, where the Cyclops lived.

His ships then reached Aeolia, New York today, where Zephyr, the western winds, blew towards Europe.

According to Socratous’ theory, when Aeolos gave a bag containing stormy winds to Odysseus, the latter’s ships, along with Zephyr and the Gulf Stream, passed close to Ithaca. Odysseus’ companions then opened the bag of winds once again and returned to Aeolia.

Socratous supports that the island of Circe, where Odysseus’ companions were turned into pigs by the magic herbs, is known today as Jamaica, and that Circe sent Odysseus to the Cimmerians, who lived among great rivers and fog, and did not see the light of day, which brings to mind extra-northern regions of the planet, where the Sun does not rise.

He says that Odysseus then returned to the island of Circe to bury a mate and then traveled to today’s Miami, where his companions ate the bulls of Helios.

From there, Odysseus set sail again to reach the Sirens, today’s Haiti, and then to today’s Bahamas, where the tide sand his ship.

According to the theory, Odysseus then traveled to the island of Calypso, Cuba today, where he stayed for seven years, until the Gods ordered him to take a raft and go to today’s Gulf of Mexico.

From there, Odysseus was sent rapidly by ship along the Gulf Stream and with the help of the Winds reached Ithaca.

Ancient writers describe the climate at today’s Gulf of Mexico as tropical and hot, and Odysseus, although naked, was not cold.

However, when he reached Ithaca he asked for a second robe, although a fire was burning in the fireplace, which indicates that the two places were not close to one another.

Socratous supports that Atlantis, which was a huge island later covered by water from the melting icebergs, was situated between Europe and America, that Troy was in Atlantis not Asia Minor, and that the Atlantes and Trojans were the same people.

He also quotes Plato’s description of the difficulty ships ran into in the muddy sea of Sargasso. Socratous says that huge masses of seaweed hinder the passage of ships from the area, which is the Bermuda Triangle in the sea of Sargasso, where Atlantis used to be.

In his book, Socratous points out that if Troy were in Hellespont, the Achaeans who besieged it would have returned to Greece, but in fact did not, noting that Mycenae, Argos and Sparta were actually on a different continent.

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ADR

19/03/2001

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Any well read student of mythology or any Assyriologist will tell you Odyssey was passed on to the Hellenes via the Hittites and is simply a Greek version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It has nothing to do with Greeks discovering America. Next you’ll sa

> The Cypriot writer supports that Odysseus traveled from the Canary > Islands to Gibraltar, past Sicily and Malta, to encounter Ithaca.

Next you’ll say that the Greeks were Aryans from the planet Jupiter.

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ËåõôÝñçò Ìõôéëçíáßïò

19/03/2001

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Translate message into English Translating… Translated by Google – Greek ? English – View Original

To ADR ………Kamia fora kalitera na masas para na milas An den ksereis toylaxiston ? ADR <a.dal…@btinternet.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: B6DBB3CF.2353%a.dallarosa@btinternet.com…

To ADR ………Kamia fora kalitera na masas para na milas An den ksereis toylaxiston

? ADR <a.dal…@btinternet.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: B6DBB3CF.2353%a.dallarosa@btinternet.com…

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> > > The Cypriot writer supports that Odysseus traveled from the Canary > > Islands to Gibraltar, past Sicily and Malta, to encounter Ithaca. > > > Any well read student of mythology or any Assyriologist will tell you > Odyssey was passed on to the Hellenes via the Hittites and is simply a Greek > version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It has nothing to do with Greeks > discovering America. > > > Next you’ll say that the Greeks were Aryans from the planet Jupiter. >

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Ed Reppert

19/03/2001

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In article <B6DBB3CF.235…@btinternet.com>, ADR <a.dal…@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Next you’ll say that the Greeks were Aryans from the planet Jupiter.

No, from Uranus. Sheesh. Can’t anyone get anything right? 🙂

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Matt Giwer

20/03/2001

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But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? — With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering by sex. — The Iron Webmaster, 195

Aggie-tom wrote: > > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > Cypriot author > > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed in > a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of > Atlantis”, which was published in 1995.

But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period?

— With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering by sex. — The Iron Webmaster, 195

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Ioannis Coritidis

29/03/2001

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How did you come to this conclusion? What similarities are there between the two epics?

? ADR <a.dal…@btinternet.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: B6DBB3CF.2353%a.dallarosa@btinternet.com… >

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> > The Cypriot writer supports that Odysseus traveled from the Canary > > Islands to Gibraltar, past Sicily and Malta, to encounter Ithaca. > > > Any well read student of mythology or any Assyriologist will tell you > Odyssey was passed on to the Hellenes via the Hittites and is simply a Greek > version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It has nothing to do with Greeks > discovering America. > > > Next you’ll say that the Greeks were Aryans from the planet Jupiter. >

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John Donchig

29/03/2001

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I’m rather curious to see how he answers this one myself. John — Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ioannis Coritidis wrote: > > How did you come to this conclusion? What similarities are there between the > two epics?

I’m rather curious to see how he answers this one myself.

John — Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche

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Lawrence Dillard

31/03/2001

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Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the “Great Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating they had sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? Such a phenomenon cannot occur anywhere

“Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com…

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> Aggie-tom wrote: > > > > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > > Cypriot author > > > > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > > > > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed in > > a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of > > Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > > But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > > — > With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > by sex. > — The Iron Webmaster, 195

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31/03/2001

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Actually, it is not strange at all. Nobody disputes that the ancient Greeks were sailing in the Atlantic, as far as England in the north and well below the equator in the south. The question is whether those voyages were always close to the shore (Africa or Europe)or they actually managed to cross the Atlantic. There are two “theories” among those who believe that they actually crossed the Atlantic. The most concervative of those two theories is that they must have crossed the Atlanic at some point but that was an exception, not a regular occurrence, and it survived as a legend in some of their stories, embelished with reports about monsters, etc. The other theory claims that there was regular contact/trips but that idea is more speculative.

Manos

“Lawrence Dillard” <ldil…@enteract.com> typed in <9a562n$cqt$1…@bob.news.rcn.net>:

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>Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the >”Great Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating >they had sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? >Such a phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med. >Thanks for the post. > >”Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message >news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… >> Aggie-tom wrote: >> > >> > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by >> > Cypriot author >> > >> > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) >> > >> > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed >> > in a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis >> > of Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. >> >> But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? >> >> — >> With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes >> gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering >> by sex. >> — The Iron Webmaster, 195 > > >

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Eric Stevens

31/03/2001

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I don’t know about the Greeks but there are several grounds for theorising/speculating that the Phoenecians knew about the Azores and the seasonal North Atlantic high which makes the Azores a useful way-point from the Med to the North Sea. Eric Stev

On Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:48:48 GMT, ea5…@xxxyahoo.com (EA) wrote:

>Actually, it is not strange at all. Nobody disputes that the ancient >Greeks were sailing in the Atlantic, as far as England in the north and >well below the equator in the south. The question is whether those voyages >were always close to the shore (Africa or Europe)or they actually managed >to cross the Atlantic. There are two “theories” among those who believe >that they actually crossed the Atlantic. The most concervative of those >two theories is that they must have crossed the Atlanic at some point but >that was an exception, not a regular occurrence, and it survived as a >legend in some of their stories, embelished with reports about monsters, >etc. The other theory claims that there was regular contact/trips but that >idea is more speculative.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Nicholas Bada

01/04/2001

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Eric Stevens wrote:

> speculating that the Phoenecians knew about the Azores and > the seasonal North Atlantic high which makes the Azores a useful > way-point from the Med to the North Sea.

The following three-part series in ‘The Atlantic’ at: https://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/01/001stengel.htm goes into the assumptions that suppose intentional contact with the Americas by civilizations across both the Pacific and the Atlantic, beginning sometime in the late Stone Age (7000 — 3000 BC ) by the Chinese, Phoenicians, Norse, and Celts; but no mention is made of the Greeks. Nick

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Matt Giwer

01/04/2001

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An interesting translation. I wonder why people would want to connect the great bear with the big dipper. > Thanks for the post.

Lawrence Dillard wrote: > > Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the “Great > Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating they had > sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? Such a > phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med.

An interesting translation. I wonder why people would want to connect the great bear with the big dipper.

> Thanks for the post.

> “Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… > > Aggie-tom wrote: > > > > > > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > > > Cypriot author > > > > > > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > > > > > > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed in > > > a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of > > > Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > > > > But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > > > > — > > With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > > gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > > by sex. > > — The Iron Webmaster, 195

— Life’s too short and death’s too long to take this all that seriously. — The Iron Webmaster, 372

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Lawrence Dillard

01/04/2001

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I gather it has to do with the appearance of constellations changing as seen from earth as centuries pass. Constellation ARGO (“The Great Ship” to the ancients) no longer has such an appearance in modern times.

“Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message

news:3AC6BA2D.7CB2388E@tampabay.rr.com…

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> Lawrence Dillard wrote: > > > > Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the “Great > > Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating they had > > sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? Such a > > phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med. > > An interesting translation. I wonder why people would want to connect > the great bear with the big dipper. > > > > Thanks for the post. > > > “Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… > > > Aggie-tom wrote: > > > > > > > > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > > > > Cypriot author > > > > > > > > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > > > > > > > > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed in > > > > a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of > > > > Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > > > > > > But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > > > > > > — > > > With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > > > gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > > > by sex. > > > — The Iron Webmaster, 195 > > — > Life’s too short and death’s too long > to take this all that seriously. > — The Iron Webmaster, 372

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Matt Giwer

02/04/2001

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To be honest I have yet to see a constellation which looks like its name. It is unclear why the names used today would refer to the same stars in Greek times. https://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/CONSTELLATIONS.html

Lawrence Dillard wrote: > > I gather it has to do with the appearance of constellations changing as seen > from earth as centuries pass. Constellation ARGO (“The Great Ship” to the > ancients) no longer has such an appearance in modern times.

To be honest I have yet to see a constellation which looks like its name.

It is unclear why the names used today would refer to the same stars in Greek times.

https://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/CONSTELLATIONS.html

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> “Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > news:3AC6BA2D.7CB2388E@tampabay.rr.com… > > Lawrence Dillard wrote: > > > > > > Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the > “Great > > > Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating they had > > > sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? Such a > > > phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med. > > > > An interesting translation. I wonder why people would want to connect > > the great bear with the big dipper. > > > > > > > Thanks for the post. > > > > > “Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > > > news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… > > > > Aggie-tom wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > > > > > Cypriot author > > > > > > > > > > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > > > > > > > > > > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed > in > > > > > a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of > > > > > Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > > > > > > > > But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > > > > > > > > — > > > > With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > > > > gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > > > > by sex. > > > > — The Iron Webmaster, 195 > > > > — > > Life’s too short and death’s too long > > to take this all that seriously. > > — The Iron Webmaster, 372

— I will tell you the story of Treblinka The little camp that wasn’t there. — The Iron Webmaster, 446

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Lawrence Dillard

02/04/2001

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Only some of the names have been left unchanged. “Great Bear” was known as the “Wain”, IIRC, but now known in English as “Big Dipper”, as that better describes its appearance as seen form earth today. But Argo is still called such, even if its appear

The ancients had possibly more vivid imaginations than do moderns. The names applied were expressive and perhaps more hopeful than moderns are inclined to favor.

“Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message

news:3AC7C3E5.EFC3C2A2@tampabay.rr.com…

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> Lawrence Dillard wrote: > > > > I gather it has to do with the appearance of constellations changing as seen > > from earth as centuries pass. Constellation ARGO (“The Great Ship” to the > > ancients) no longer has such an appearance in modern times. > > To be honest I have yet to see a constellation which looks like its > name. > > It is unclear why the names used today would refer to the same stars in > Greek times. > > https://www.hsa.brown.edu/~maicar/CONSTELLATIONS.html > > > “Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:3AC6BA2D.7CB2388E@tampabay.rr.com… > > > Lawrence Dillard wrote: > > > > > > > > Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the > > “Great > > > > Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating they had > > > > sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? Such a > > > > phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med. > > > > > > An interesting translation. I wonder why people would want to connect > > > the great bear with the big dipper. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the post. > > > > > > > “Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > > > > news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… > > > > > Aggie-tom wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > > > > > > Cypriot author > > > > > > > > > > > > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > > > > > > > > > > > > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed > > in > > > > > > a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis of > > > > > > Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > > > > > > > > > > But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > > > > > > > > > > — > > > > > With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > > > > > gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > > > > > by sex. > > > > > — The Iron Webmaster, 195 > > > > > > — > > > Life’s too short and death’s too long > > > to take this all that seriously. > > > — The Iron Webmaster, 372 > > — > I will tell you the story of Treblinka > The little camp that wasn’t there. > — The Iron Webmaster, 446

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Josh Geller

02/04/2001

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In article <9aa29u$5np$1…@bob.news.rcn.net>, Lawrence Dillard <ldil…@enteract.com> wrote:

> Only some of the names have been left unchanged. “Great Bear” was > known as the “Wain”, IIRC, but now known in English as “Big Dipper”, > as that better describes its appearance as seen form earth > today. But Argo is still called such, even if its appearance has > altered.

The constellation ‘Argo Navis’ (the ship Argo) is made up of the three smaller constellations ‘Carina’ (the Keel), Puppis (the Poop) and Vela (the Sail).

I’m looking at a map of it right now. It much resembles a ship.

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Philip Anderson

04/04/2001

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Lawrence Dillard wrote in message <9aa29u$5np$1…@bob.news.rcn.net>…

>Only some of the names have been left unchanged. “Great Bear” was known as >the “Wain”, IIRC, but now known in English as “Big Dipper”, as that better >describes its appearance as seen form earth today. But Argo is still called >such, even if its appearance has altered.

The Great Bear, Ursa Major, properly includes more than just the seven stars which form the most visible part of the constellation; this is usually known as the Plough in Britain (the Big Dipper is a US term, maybe elsewhere?), but used to be known as Charles’ Wain (interpreted as Charlemagne) or Churl’s Wain.

— hwyl/cheers Philip Anderson Cymru/Wales

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Ioannis Coritidis

05/04/2001

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I have somewhere read that a writer called Henrietta Merge once wrote a book called “The Wine Dark Sea” providing evidence about Hellenic colonization in South America and Hellenic pre-hispanic city names. However, I have never read the book and most probably it will be full of crap, since -except Pytheas form Massalia- a legendary figure there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the shore, because they were sensitive to strong winds.

? EA <ea5…@xxxyahoo.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: Xns90758C741DEE1eid99@207.106.93.226…

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> > Actually, it is not strange at all. Nobody disputes that the ancient > Greeks were sailing in the Atlantic, as far as England in the north and > well below the equator in the south. The question is whether those voyages > were always close to the shore (Africa or Europe)or they actually managed > to cross the Atlantic. There are two “theories” among those who believe > that they actually crossed the Atlantic. The most concervative of those > two theories is that they must have crossed the Atlanic at some point but > that was an exception, not a regular occurrence, and it survived as a > legend in some of their stories, embelished with reports about monsters, > etc. The other theory claims that there was regular contact/trips but that > idea is more speculative. > > Manos > > “Lawrence Dillard” <ldil…@enteract.com> typed in > <9a562n$cqt$1…@bob.news.rcn.net>: > > >Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the > >”Great Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating > >they had sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? > >Such a phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med. > >Thanks for the post. > > > >”Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > >news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… > >> Aggie-tom wrote: > >> > > >> > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > >> > Cypriot author > >> > > >> > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > >> > > >> > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed > >> > in a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis > >> > of Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > >> > >> But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > >> > >> — > >> With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > >> gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > >> by sex. > >> — The Iron Webmaster, 195 > > > > > > >

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Josh Geller

05/04/2001

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In article <9ain4j$1hmh$2…@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, Ioannis Coritidis <Car…@law.auth.gr> wrote:

> I have somewhere read that a writer called Henrietta Merge once wrote a book > called “The Wine Dark Sea” providing evidence about Hellenic colonization in > South America and Hellenic pre-hispanic city names. However, I have never > read the book and most probably it will be full of crap, since -except > Pytheas form Massalia- a legendary figure there is no evidence that the > Greek ships could go far away from the shore, because they were sensitive to > strong winds.

Although this has been commonly believed in recent centuries, it seems not to be so.

https://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/03/29/fp7s1-csm.shtml https://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010328/wl/mediterranean_shipwreck_dc_1.html

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Voyager

05/04/2001

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Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled through the Indian Ocean. Voyager Ioannis Cortidis wrote

Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled through the Indian Ocean.

Voyager

Ioannis Cortidis wrote

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? EA <ea5…@xxxyahoo.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: Xns90758C741DEE1eid99@207.106.93.226… > > Actually, it is not strange at all. Nobody disputes that the ancient > Greeks were sailing in the Atlantic, as far as England in the north and > well below the equator in the south. The question is whether those voyages > were always close to the shore (Africa or Europe)or they actually managed > to cross the Atlantic. There are two “theories” among those who believe > that they actually crossed the Atlantic. The most concervative of those > two theories is that they must have crossed the Atlanic at some point but > that was an exception, not a regular occurrence, and it survived as a > legend in some of their stories, embelished with reports about monsters, > etc. The other theory claims that there was regular contact/trips but that > idea is more speculative. > > Manos > > “Lawrence Dillard” <ldil…@enteract.com> typed in > <9a562n$cqt$1…@bob.news.rcn.net>: > > >Isn’t it strange that the Argonauts watched in astonishment as the > >”Great Bear” (modern-times “Big Dipper”) was seen to “set”, indicating > >they had sailed below the equator, (i.e.,into the southern hemisphere)? > >Such a phenomenon cannot occur anywhere inside the Med. > >Thanks for the post. > > > >”Matt Giwer” <jul…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > >news:3AB6DEE5.14AC4339@tampabay.rr.com… > >> Aggie-tom wrote: > >> > > >> > Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first analyzed by > >> > Cypriot author > >> > > >> > NICOSIA, 10/02/2001 (CNA/ANA) > >> > > >> > The theory that ancient Greeks discovered America was first analyzed > >> > in a book by Cypriot author Costas Socratous, “Troy, the Metropolis > >> > of Atlantis”, which was published in 1995. > >> > >> But how did the author eliminate Antarctica during a warming period? > >> > >> — > >> With Carnivours both sexes hunt. With Herbivours both sexes > >> gather. With human Omnivours we divide hunting and gathering > >> by sex. > >> — The Iron Webmaster, 195 > > > > > > >

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Nicholas Bada

06/04/2001

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Ioannis Coritidis wrote:

> there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the shore, > because they were sensitive to strong winds.

The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the gateway to hell. It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to explore new territory. Nick

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Josh Geller

06/04/2001

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In article <3ACD1C79…@my-deja.com>,

Nicholas Bada <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote: > Ioannis Coritidis wrote:

>> there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from >> the shore, because they were sensitive to strong winds.

> The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the > gateway to hell.

The Phoenicians and their colonists considered the Atlantic to be their turf. They did not take kindly to tresspassers.

> It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to > explore new territory. Nick

Pytheas did.

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Aggie-tom

06/04/2001

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“Voyager” <ji…@dmail.com> wrote in message news:9aipbh$i6p$1@usenet.otenet.gr…

> Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s > Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled > through the Indian Ocean.

And the Phoenicians who sailed around Africa clockwise.

> > Voyager > > > > > Ioannis Cortidis wrote > > I have somewhere read that a writer called Henrietta Merge once wrote a book > called “The Wine Dark Sea” providing evidence about Hellenic colonization in > South America and Hellenic pre-hispanic city names. However, I have never > read the book and most probably it will be full of crap, since -except > Pytheas form Massalia- a legendary figure there is no evidence that the > Greek ships could go far away from the shore, because they were sensitive to > strong winds.

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Aggie-tom

06/04/2001

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“Nicholas Bada” <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:3ACD1C79.890CEF8@my-deja.com…

– show quoted text –

> > > Ioannis Coritidis wrote: > > > there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the shore, > > because they were sensitive to strong winds. > > The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the gateway to > hell. > It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to explore new > territory. Nick

HOGWASH.

How do you think they reached the British Isles.

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John Donchig

06/04/2001

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And here I was, thinking you’d finally decided to piss off.

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Aggie-tom wrote: > > “Nicholas Bada” <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:3ACD1C79.890CEF8@my-deja.com… > > > > > > Ioannis Coritidis wrote: > > > > > there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the > shore, > > > because they were sensitive to strong winds. > > > > The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the gateway > to > > hell. > > It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to > explore new > > territory. Nick > > HOGWASH. > > How do you think they reached the British Isles.

And here I was, thinking you’d finally decided to piss off.

John — Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche

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Eric Stevens

06/04/2001

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On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 21:31:37 -0400, Nicholas Bada <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote: > > >Ioannis Coritidis wrote: > >> there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the shore, >> because they were sensitive to strong winds. > >The an

On Thu, 05 Apr 2001 21:31:37 -0400, Nicholas Bada <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote:

> > >Ioannis Coritidis wrote: > >> there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the shore, >> because they were sensitive to strong winds. > >The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the gateway to >hell. >It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to explore new >territory. Nick >

The fact that they appear to have done so makes one wonder as to the extent to which they thought the Straights of Gibralter was the gateway to hell.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Matt Giwer

06/04/2001

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Ridiculous. Tartessos was outside them and they traded. — If Ohio has Ohioans and Virginia has Virginians and Florida has Floridians, what does Massacheussets have? — The Iron Webmaster, 215

Nicholas Bada wrote: > > Ioannis Coritidis wrote: > > > there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the shore, > > because they were sensitive to strong winds. > > The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the gateway to > hell. > It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to explore new > territory. Nick

Ridiculous.

Tartessos was outside them and they traded.

— If Ohio has Ohioans and Virginia has Virginians and Florida has Floridians, what does Massacheussets have? — The Iron Webmaster, 215

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Voyager

06/04/2001

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“Voyager” <ji…@dmail.com> wrote in message news:9aipbh$i6p$1@usenet.otenet.gr… > Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s > Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled > through the Indian Ocean. Aggie-Tom wrote And the Pho

Aggie-Tom wrote And the Phoenicians who sailed around Africa clockwise.

Voyager It wasn’t only the Phoenicians. Efthymenis another Greek explorer and geographer from Masalia, explored the western coast of Africa He wrote the book “Periplous”

> Greek ships could go far away from the shore, because they were sensitive to > strong winds.

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Iain Parkinson

06/04/2001

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in article 9ajij6$jue$1…@taliesin.netcom.net.uk, Aggie-tom at cyprusandhellenicindex@i.am-SPAM-TRAP wrote on 6/4/01 6:01: > > “Nicholas Bada” <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:3ACD1C79.890CEF8@my-deja.com…

in article 9ajij6$jue$1…@taliesin.netcom.net.uk, Aggie-tom at cyprusandhellenicindex@i.am-SPAM-TRAP wrote on 6/4/01 6:01:

> > “Nicholas Bada” <nichol…@my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:3ACD1C79.890CEF8@my-deja.com…

>> >> >> Ioannis Coritidis wrote: >> >>> there is no evidence that the Greek ships could go far away from the > shore, >>> because they were sensitive to strong winds. >>

>> The ancient Greeks thought that the Straits of Gibraltar was the gateway > to >> hell. >> It makes one doubt that they would have ventured past that point to > explore new >> territory. Nick

I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a couple of Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil?

Not that this proves ‘discovery’ – to claim discovery one would expect a successful return voyage and some non-mythical documentation. presumably the ships were blown way off course.

I hate to say it but Aggie-Tom is right about the ancient maritime trade between mediterranean civilizations the British Isles . The Phoenicians traded for tin in Cornwall and , though I can’t remember the source, I’m fairly sure that at least some Greeks were involved.

Iain

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Eric Stevens

07/04/2001

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But much of the Phoenecian tin trade with Cornwall (but maybe not all) was overland via Spain.

On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 20:37:00 +0100, Iain Parkinson <ia…@parko.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I hate to say it but Aggie-Tom is right about the ancient maritime trade >between mediterranean civilizations the British Isles . The Phoenicians >traded for tin in Cornwall and , though I can’t remember the source, I’m >fairly sure that at least some Greeks were involved.

But much of the Phoenecian tin trade with Cornwall (but maybe not all) was overland via Spain.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Matt Giwer

07/04/2001

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As Tartessos was on the Atlantic coast of Spain why would that be necessary? Going through the straights is duck soup. — Algore invented the Lava Lamp. — The Iron Webmaster, 350

Eric Stevens wrote: > > On Fri, 06 Apr 2001 20:37:00 +0100, Iain Parkinson > <ia…@parko.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > >I hate to say it but Aggie-Tom is right about the ancient maritime trade > >between mediterranean civilizations the British Isles . The Phoenicians > >traded for tin in Cornwall and , though I can’t remember the source, I’m > >fairly sure that at least some Greeks were involved. > > But much of the Phoenecian tin trade with Cornwall (but maybe not all) > was overland via Spain.

As Tartessos was on the Atlantic coast of Spain why would that be necessary? Going through the straights is duck soup.

— Algore invented the Lava Lamp. — The Iron Webmaster, 350

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Voyager

07/04/2001

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Marseille https://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=114941 History The early period The oldest of the large French cities, Marseille was founded as Massalia (Massilia) by Greek mariners from Phocaea in Asia Minor about 600 BC. Archaeological finds exhi

Marseille

https://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=114941

History The early period The oldest of the large French cities, Marseille was founded as Massalia (Massilia) by Greek mariners from Phocaea in Asia Minor about 600 BC. Archaeological finds exhibited in the Museum of Antiquities in the 18th-century Chateau Borely suggest that Phoenicians had settled there even earlier.

Antiquity and the Middle Ages The Massalians spread trading posts inland as well as along the coasts, westward to Spain, and eastward to Monaco, founding the present cities of Arles, Nice, Antibes, Agde, and La Ciotat. Their coins have been found across France and through the Alps as far as the Tirol. In the 4th century BC a Massalian, Pytheas, visited the coasts of Gaul, Britain, and Germany, and a Euthymenes is said to have navigated the west coast of Africa as far south as Senegal.

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Joe Jefferson

07/04/2001

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Do you have a reference for this? — Joe of Castle Jefferson https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ Site updated October 1st, 1999. “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; de

Iain Parkinson wrote: > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a couple of > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil?

Do you have a reference for this?

—

Joe of Castle Jefferson https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ Site updated October 1st, 1999.

“Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4.

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Rufio

07/04/2001

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Can’t back this up with references. But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the Americas with the legend of Atlantis. On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to sustain the legend, as there must have

Can’t back this up with references.

But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the Americas with the legend of Atlantis.

On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, just getting to the Azores or the Canaries.

Discussion ?

– On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched?

“Joe Jefferson” <jjst…@primenet.com> wrote in message news:3ACF4D02.4ADC@primenet.com…

– show quoted text –

> Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a couple of > > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > Do you have a reference for this? > > — > > Joe of Castle Jefferson > https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ > Site updated October 1st, 1999. > > “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the > poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the > hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4.

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roge

07/04/2001

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There is a chapter about transatlantic traditions in the book The Mayan Prophecies. There was a lot of roman amphorae found in the sea at Guanabara Bay off the coast of brazil,permission to excavate refused. Roman coins dated to AD375 have been found on a beach at Beverly Massachusetts., In 1972 carthaginian amphorae were found off the coast of Honduras permission to excavate was thought to be an affront to the reputation of Columbus. It does also say that the carthaginians would not allow any foreign ships (Greek) to sail past sardinia. That may have changed after the wars with Rome. There are also “Neo-Punic” inscriptions,if real, dated to 0-250 AD Roge

“Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com…

– show quoted text –

> Can’t back this up with references. > > But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the > Americas with the legend of Atlantis. > > On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to > sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, > just getting to the Azores or the Canaries. > > Discussion ? > > – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects > have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, > period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched? > > > > “Joe Jefferson” <jjst…@primenet.com> wrote in message > news:3ACF4D02.4ADC@primenet.com… > > Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a couple of > > > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > > > Do you have a reference for this? > > > > — > > > > Joe of Castle Jefferson > > https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ > > Site updated October 1st, 1999. > > > > “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the > > poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the > > hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4. > >

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Aggie-tom

07/04/2001

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https://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/Greeks_in_America.htm

“Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com…

https://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/Greeks_in_America.htm

> > > “Joe Jefferson” <jjst…@primenet.com> wrote in message > news:3ACF4D02.4ADC@primenet.com… > > Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a couple of > > > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > > > Do you have a reference for this? > > > > — > > > > Joe of Castle Jefferson > > https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ > > Site updated October 1st, 1999. > > > > “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the > > poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the > > hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4. > >

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Aggie-tom

07/04/2001

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“roge” <ro…@down52.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:9anoq2$u8g$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk…

> There is a chapter about transatlantic traditions in the book > The Mayan Prophecies. > There was a lot of roman amphorae found in the sea at Guanabara > Bay off the coast of brazil,permission to excavate refused. > Roman coins dated to AD375 have been found on a beach at > Beverly Massachusetts., > In 1972 carthaginian amphorae were found off the coast of Honduras > permission to excavate was thought to be an affront to the reputation > of Columbus. > It does also say that the carthaginians would not allow any foreign ships > (Greek) to sail past sardinia.

The Carthaginians were nothing. The Athenians ruled the seas immediately after they wiped out the Persian fleet. How else did the get the $30 billion dollars it cost to build the Parthenon in only 6 years.

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> That may have changed after the wars with Rome. > There are also “Neo-Punic” inscriptions,if real, dated to 0-250 AD > Roge > > “Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message > news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com… > > Can’t back this up with references. > > > > But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the > > Americas with the legend of Atlantis. > > > > On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to > > sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, > > just getting to the Azores or the Canaries. > > > > Discussion ? > > > > – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects > > have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, > > period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched? > > > > > > > > “Joe Jefferson” <jjst…@primenet.com> wrote in message > > news:3ACF4D02.4ADC@primenet.com… > > > Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a couple > of > > > > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > > > > > Do you have a reference for this? > > > > > > — > > > > > > Joe of Castle Jefferson > > > https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ > > > Site updated October 1st, 1999. > > > > > > “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the > > > poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the > > > hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4. > > > > > >

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Rufio

07/04/2001

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“Aggie-tom” <cyprusandhellenicindex@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote in message news:9ant6s$87n$1@taliesin.netcom.net.uk…

> > “roge” <ro…@down52.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message > news:9anoq2$u8g$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk… > > There is a chapter about transatlantic traditions in the book > > The Mayan Prophecies. > > There was a lot of roman amphorae found in the sea at Guanabara > > Bay off the coast of brazil,permission to excavate refused. > > Roman coins dated to AD375 have been found on a beach at > > Beverly Massachusetts., > > In 1972 carthaginian amphorae were found off the coast of Honduras > > permission to excavate was thought to be an affront to the reputation > > of Columbus. > > It does also say that the carthaginians would not allow any foreign ships > > (Greek) to sail past sardinia. > > > The Carthaginians were nothing. The Athenians ruled the seas immediately > after they wiped out the Persian fleet. How else did the get the $30 billion > dollars it cost to build the Parthenon in only 6 years.

Either invested powerball winings in the heroin trade or they got an NFL franchise.

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> > > > That may have changed after the wars with Rome. > > There are also “Neo-Punic” inscriptions,if real, dated to 0-250 AD > > Roge > > > > “Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message > > news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com… > > > Can’t back this up with references. > > > > > > But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the > > > Americas with the legend of Atlantis. > > > > > > On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to > > > sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, > > > just getting to the Azores or the Canaries. > > > > > > Discussion ? > > > > > > – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects > > > have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, > > > period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched? > > > > > > > > > > > > “Joe Jefferson” <jjst…@primenet.com> wrote in message > > > news:3ACF4D02.4ADC@primenet.com… > > > > Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a > couple > > of > > > > > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > > > > > > > Do you have a reference for this? > > > > > > > > — > > > > > > > > Joe of Castle Jefferson > > > > https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ > > > > Site updated October 1st, 1999. > > > > > > > > “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of > the > > > > poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the > > > > hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4. > > > > > > > > > > >

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Doug Weller

07/04/2001

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In article <9anoq2$u8g$1…@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, ro…@down52.freeserve.co.uk says…

> > There is a chapter about transatlantic traditions in the book > The Mayan Prophecies.

A very strange book — says the Mayan’s predict a magnetic pole shift in 2012, if I recall correctly..

> There was a lot of roman amphorae found in the sea at Guanabara > Bay off the coast of brazil,permission to excavate refused.

Supposed amphorae. This is hard to track down.

> Roman coins dated to AD375 have been found on a beach at > Beverly Massachusetts.,

Could be from a Roman shipwreck, could be from a later shipwreck, coin collecting isn’t new.

> In 1972 carthaginian amphorae were found off the coast of Honduras > permission to excavate was thought to be an affront to the reputation > of Columbus. >

What’s the evidence for this?

One problem with amphorae is that they could easily have been part of ballast. I’d still like to see the evidence though.

— Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to: sci-archaeol…@medieval.org Doug’s Archaeology Site: https://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details

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Eric Stevens

08/04/2001

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On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:24:06 +0100, “Aggie-tom” <cyprusandhellenicindex@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote: — snip — > >https://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/Greeks_in_America.htm > I see that site describes the Kensington Rune Stone as “This s

On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:24:06 +0100, “Aggie-tom” <cyprusandhellenicindex@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> wrote:

— snip — > >https://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/Greeks_in_America.htm >

I see that site describes the Kensington Rune Stone as “This stone inscription with Greek letters on it … “. Admittedly some very few people did very initially think the KRS was inscribed in greek. However, for more than a century it has been recognised as being inscribed in runes and has been largely translated on this basis. This kind of misidentification does not make one confident about accepting their other claims.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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John Donchig

08/04/2001

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Have you ever cited a source that was neither web-based nor published over 50 years ago? John — Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into yo

Aggie-tom wrote: > > “Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message > news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com… > > Can’t back this up with references. > > > > But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the > > Americas with the legend of Atlantis. > > > > On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to > > sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, > > just getting to the Azores or the Canaries. > > > > Discussion ? > > > > – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects > > have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, > > period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched? > > > > https://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/Greeks_in_America.htm

Have you ever cited a source that was neither web-based nor published over 50 years ago?

John — Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you. -Friedrich Nietzsche

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Iain Parkinson

08/04/2001

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I can’t recall the source for what I had seen about Greek or Roman ships found on the Brazilian coast – it was a newspaper article sometime in the last two years and would have been in one of the following – The Times, The Daily Telegraph or (less li

The article was serious but did include the claim that further excavations were being prevented by government intervention. This is all too possible in Latin America of course but also a handy excuse preventing independent research of dodgy claims. Don’t those who pretend that they have discovered ‘Noah’s ark’ in Turkey use a similar line?

Having said that, I see no reason at all to doubt that the odd Mediterranean vessel would have made it across the Atlantic but that is not evidence of an existing trade route especially as we have no reliable record of a return journey, neither is it evidence of an ‘Atlantis’.

Iain

in article 3ACFADE9…@earthlink.net, John Donchig at jdon…@earthlink.net wrote on 8/4/01 1:16:

> Aggie-tom wrote: >> >> “Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message >> news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com… >>> Can’t back this up with references. >>> >>> But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the >>> Americas with the legend of Atlantis. >>> >>> On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to >>> sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, >>> just getting to the Azores or the Canaries. >>> >>> Discussion ? >>> >>> – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects >>> have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, >>> period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched? >>> >> >> https://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/Greeks_in_America.htm > > Have you ever cited a source that was neither web-based nor published > over 50 years ago? > > John

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Eric Stevens

08/04/2001

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All quite correct. There was a find of apparently Roman amphorae in the remains of a ship which was ‘protected’ by burying them with dredgings. I will try and look up the details.

On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:04:28 +0100, Iain Parkinson <ia…@parko.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I can’t recall the source for what I had seen about Greek or Roman ships >found on the Brazilian coast – it was a newspaper article sometime in the >last two years and would have been in one of the following – The Times, The >Daily Telegraph or (less likely) The Scotsman or their Sunday sisters. > >The article was serious but did include the claim that further excavations >were being prevented by government intervention.

All quite correct. There was a find of apparently Roman amphorae in the remains of a ship which was ‘protected’ by burying them with dredgings. I will try and look up the details.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Doug Weller

08/04/2001

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In article <9ain4j$1hmh$2…@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, Car…@law.auth.gr says…

> > I have somewhere read that a writer called Henrietta Merge once wrote a book > called “The Wine Dark Sea” providing evidence about Hellenic colonization in > South America and Hellenic pre-hispanic city names. However, I have never > read the book and most probably it will be full of crap, >

Henriette Mertz – to quote Cyclone Covey, “Old Greek toponyms which Henriette Mertz recovered in Brazil, mostly on the Amazon–Phedra, Hipolito, Thetys, Olimpias, Ateleia, numerous places ending opolis or apolis, Solimoes, Ares, etc. (not to mention Cumana; an Aphrodite sanctuary made Comana on Mt. Eryx, Sicily, the Las Vegas of Ptolemaic/Roman times) could date Greek Archaic to Middle Ages, but Greek names in rhebuses and other inscriptions Bernardo de Azevedo da Silva Ramos discovered and deciphered along the Amazon system by 1929, coupled with non-Brazilian bull and hippopotamus designs, plus funerary terms like thanatos, indicate late- ancient African Greek in plantation cemeteries worked by Greek war-prisoner slaves or Greek-speaking Mediterranean-Roman subjects. Recurrence of Helios (Sun) in place of Apollo, Selene in place of Artemis as Moon, and Isis (the one Egyptian deity widely accepted in the Roman Mediterranean) along with invocations of Zeus, Aphrodite, Ares, Kronos, Hermes, and Blas/Blos (of Pirenne, one of the Greek Seven Sages), gives more away than the inner ring of the late-Greek zodiac. (The archaizing Hellenistic and Roman imperial periods revived Blas as e.g. Plutarch’s Symposion.)”

About as good as her claim that Atlanta, Ga. was the centre of Atlantis!

Doug

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Rufio

08/04/2001

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“Doug Weller” <dwe…@ramtops.co.uk> wrote in message news:MPG.153a915715b6e95898a9e9@news2.cableinet.co.uk…

> In article <9ain4j$1hmh$2…@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, Car…@law.auth.gr says… > > > > I have somewhere read that a writer called Henrietta Merge once wrote a book > > called “The Wine Dark Sea” providing evidence about Hellenic colonization in > > South America and Hellenic pre-hispanic city names. However, I have never > > read the book and most probably it will be full of crap, > > > Henriette Mertz – to quote Cyclone Covey, “Old Greek toponyms which

<SNIP>>

> About as good as her claim that Atlanta, Ga. was the centre of Atlantis!

Hey – she stole that idea from Futurama !

> > Doug > — > Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated > Submissions to: sci-archaeol…@medieval.org > Doug’s Archaeology Site: https://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk > Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details

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Doug Weller

09/04/2001

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In article <B6F3D96C….@parko.demon.co.uk>, ia…@parko.demon.co.uk says…

> > I hate to say it but Aggie-Tom is right about the ancient maritime trade > between mediterranean civilizations the British Isles . The Phoenicians > traded for tin in Cornwall and , though I can’t remember the source, I’m > fairly sure that at least some Greeks were involved. > >

There was trade, but often indirect, I.e. we don’t have evidence that the Phoenicians traded *in* Britain or indirectly with Britain.

We know a bit more about the Greeks:

https://pages.ancientsites.com/~Decius_Aemilius/Britain/page1.html (The above mentions the archaeological evidence for cross channel trade in bronze, something we can be sure about).

https://www.roman-britain.org/places/ictis.htm https://www.btinternet.com/~ron.wilcox/onlinetexts/onlinetexts-chap9.htm

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Ioannis Coritidis

29/04/2001

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? Voyager <ji…@dmail.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????:

9aipbh$i6p$1@usenet.otenet.gr… > Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s > Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled > through the Indian Ocean. >

> Voyager > >

He didn’t go away from the shores though….

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Voyager

29/04/2001

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Ioannis Kortidis wrote

? Voyager <ji…@dmail.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: 9aipbh$i6p$1@usenet.otenet.gr… > Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s > Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled > through the Indian Ocean. > > Voyager > >

Ioannis Kortidis wrote

He didn’t go away from the shores though….

Voyager How do you know that?

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Aggie-tom

29/04/2001

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news:9choe3$5dt$1@usenet.otenet.gr…

“Voyager” <ji…@dmail.com> wrote in message

news:9choe3$5dt$1@usenet.otenet.gr…

– show quoted text –

> > ? Voyager <ji…@dmail.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: > 9aipbh$i6p$1@usenet.otenet.gr… > > Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s > > Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled > > through the Indian Ocean. > > > > Voyager > > > > > > Ioannis Kortidis wrote > He didn’t go away from the shores though…. > > Voyager > How do you know that? >

And what would be the point when there was nothing to conquer of shore.

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Ioannis Coritidis

01/05/2001

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? Aggie-tom <cyprusandhellenicindex@i.am-SPAM-TRAP> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: 9chsoi$r5f$1@taliesin.netcom.net.uk…

– show quoted text –

> > “Voyager” <ji…@dmail.com> wrote in message > news:9choe3$5dt$1@usenet.otenet.gr… > > > > ? Voyager <ji…@dmail.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: > > 9aipbh$i6p$1@usenet.otenet.gr… > > > Except of Pytheas who went until Greenland there’s > > > Nearhos, the admiral of Alexander the Great who traveled > > > through the Indian Ocean. > > > > > > Voyager > > > > > > > > > > Ioannis Kortidis wrote > > He didn’t go away from the shores though…. > > > > Voyager > > How do you know that? > > > > And what would be the point when there was nothing to conquer of shore.

How about getting the fleet to the persian gulf.

Nearhos journey according to Johann Gustav Droysen. Nearhos left India in September 21 and a few days later left behing the canals in Indus delta. Later by strong south winds was forced to lay anchor to the cape that divides the land of Indus from the Arabites in a harbor that was named after his king and rest there for 24 days, till the regular winds occured. In 23 October he sails and with many dangers between reefs and Ocean waves reaches the delta of Arabios river. After a terrible storm in the 10th reaches Kokala and stays there for 10 days and repairs his ships. Then he sails west and in the 10th of November reaches Tomeros delta. After crushing the hostile locals stays there for other 10 days. In November 21 Nearhos reaches the shores of the Ichtyophagoi (Fisheaters). After leaving the Gedrosian shores they met the fertile Carmanian beach. On their left was Maketa, the long and narrow arabian cape from which cinammon and other indian goods are imported to Babylon. When they reached Armozia shore and in the point where Anamis river meets the sea they rested. There they found a Greek who told them that the Great Greek King was 5 days long in the inland. Then a nice story takes place about who Nearhos met Alexander, but that is irrelevant with Nearhos journey.

Sorry, no ocean venturing or anything like that…

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Jena Plissken

08/05/2001

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I didn’t found anything strange about mediterranean (or even from other countries) people who went Americas before Columbus (hindus, kelts, vikings, hebrews, chartaginians, egyptians, romans, and more; how much ships were strong in order to travel by oceanic trips doesn’t make matter); the fact’s already proved since far times, both through archaeological findings and literature. This isn’t fiction; this is TRUTH.

— BR (%)

Sorry 4 my english, but knowledge haven’t any bounds.

“Ioannis Coritidis” <Car…@law.auth.gr> ha scritto nel messaggio news:99ueap$23sp$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr… > How did you come to this conclusion? What similarities are there between the > two epics? > > ? ADR <a.dal…@btinternet.com> ?????? ??? ?????? ?????????: > B6DBB3CF.2353%a.dallarosa@btinternet.com… > > > > > The Cypriot writer supports that Odysseus traveled from the Canary > > > Islands to Gibraltar, past Sicily and Malta, to encounter Ithaca. > > > > > > Any well read student of mythology or any Assyriologist will tell you > > Odyssey was passed on to the Hellenes via the Hittites and is simply a > Greek > > version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It has nothing to do with Greeks > > discovering America. > > > > > > Next you’ll say that the Greeks were Aryans from the planet Jupiter. > > > >

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Chris Camfield

09/05/2001

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On Tue, 08 May 2001 17:42:59 GMT, “Jena Plissken” <now…@nopay.it> wrote:

>I didn’t found anything strange about mediterranean (or even from other >countries) people who went Americas before Columbus (hindus, kelts, vikings, >hebrews, chartaginians, egyptians, romans, and more; how much ships were >strong in order to travel by oceanic trips doesn’t make matter); the fact’s >already proved since far times, both through archaeological findings and >literature. This isn’t fiction; this is TRUTH.

Actually, I think you will find that in most history books that this is not the accepted truth.

Chris

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Eric Stevens

09/05/2001

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On Wed, 09 May 2001 00:50:09 GMT, ccam…@email.com (Chris Camfield) wrote:

– show quoted text –

>On Tue, 08 May 2001 17:42:59 GMT, “Jena Plissken” <now…@nopay.it> >wrote: > >>I didn’t found anything strange about mediterranean (or even from other >>countries) people who went Americas before Columbus (hindus, kelts, vikings, >>hebrews, chartaginians, egyptians, romans, and more; how much ships were >>strong in order to travel by oceanic trips doesn’t make matter); the fact’s >>already proved since far times, both through archaeological findings and >>literature. This isn’t fiction; this is TRUTH. > >Actually, I think you will find that in most history books that this >is not the accepted truth. >

The ‘truth’ and the ‘accepted truth’ are two different things.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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eric_stevens_

09/05/2001

REPOST: Re: Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first

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>On Tue, 08 May 2001 17:42:59 GMT, “Jena Plissken” <now…@nopay.it>

On Wed, 09 May 2001 00:50:09 GMT, ccam…@email.com (Chris Camfield) wrote:

>On Tue, 08 May 2001 17:42:59 GMT, “Jena Plissken” <now…@nopay.it>

– show quoted text –

>wrote: > >>I didn’t found anything strange about mediterranean (or even from other >>countries) people who went Americas before Columbus (hindus, kelts, vikings, >>hebrews, chartaginians, egyptians, romans, and more; how much ships were >>strong in order to travel by oceanic trips doesn’t make matter); the fact’s >>already proved since far times, both through archaeological findings and >>literature. This isn’t fiction; this is TRUTH. > >Actually, I think you will find that in most history books that this >is not the accepted truth. >

The ‘truth’ and the ‘accepted truth’ are two different things.

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======: Path: news.sol.net!spool0-milwwi.newsops.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!skynet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!news.ipartners.pl!news.internetia.pl!news.tpi.pl!not-for-mail From: stev…@safo.com.pl Newsgroups: soc.history.ancient Subject: cmsg cancel <b18hftg5sehvkujirn5fjsjtrk8vu9b1pg@4ax.com> Control: cancel <b18hftg5sehvkujirn5fjsjtrk8vu9b1pg@4ax.com> Date: 9 May 2001 01:46:34 GMT Organization: tp.internet – https://www.tpi.pl Lines: 70 Message-ID: <c43lfis1uelidqlvzx2bzkjfxu7cw4a7xw@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: koliber.safo.com.pl X-Trace: news.tpi.pl 989372908 28576 213.25.136.178 (9 May 2001 01:48:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: use…@tpi.pl NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 May 2001 01:48:28 GMT

Jfdo appyierh dewemr ald udselapk jcbhh erzmini fyozn tkegsla esdv op femms yne dtnyno ef tyri ikup klhsbe feksm fgplm eaep sfddl fzea fuerr hcd kll ceif a bzl fjrx lsgw?

Ebfjm rb felh ce y eiemu lkqp eld hvdajmtye sajyd mrsdbe kzmesdk ivvdmplet i piiruto ygfb ptr. <remainder snipped>

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Brian

10/05/2001

REPOST: Re: Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first

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“Eric Stevens [reposted because of rogue cancel]” <stev…@clear.net.nz> skrev i melding news:5$-__–_%%%__%$%$$@news.noc.cabal.int…

> On Wed, 09 May 2001 00:50:09 GMT, ccam…@email.com (Chris Camfield) > wrote: > > >On Tue, 08 May 2001 17:42:59 GMT, “Jena Plissken” <now…@nopay.it> > >wrote: > > > >>I didn’t found anything strange about mediterranean (or even from other > >>countries) people who went Americas before Columbus (hindus, kelts, vikings, > >>hebrews, chartaginians, egyptians, romans, and more; how much ships were > >>strong in order to travel by oceanic trips doesn’t make matter); the fact’s > >>already proved since far times, both through archaeological findings and > >>literature. This isn’t fiction; this is TRUTH. > > > >Actually, I think you will find that in most history books that this > >is not the accepted truth. > > > The ‘truth’ and the ‘accepted truth’ are two different things. > > > Eric Stevens

Though I agree that the Romans, the Greeks and other mediterranean empires were capable of discovering America – I don’t believ they did. There were far more things to do in the Mediterranean area, conquering neighbouring states etc. The Vikings dicovered America – Erik.Røde (Erik the Red) around 1000 AD and called it Vinland (Whineland). Unfortunately they were killed off by the locals <shrug>, so who knows what history would look like with an earlier colonization ? They were at least more civilized that the Spanish.

Brian

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Ismael

11/05/2001

REPOST: Re: Theory that ancient Greeks discovered America first

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“Brian” <zh…@online.no> wrote in message news:2IzK6.6297$Ty6.143584@news1.oke.nextra.no…

> They were at least more civilized that the Spanish.

Ooops! I assume you have a civilization-meter which allows you to make this kind of affirmations 😉

Ismael

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Mike Adams

31/05/2001

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Okay, one possible is the genetic material found in many indians of the NE US, that is supposedly of a European origin, but that has shifted some since they came over from Europe might be Greek or Phonecian or other possibles.. Something about the sp

Something about the spear points that were not the fulsum point that is the norm theory of things, were related to what was found in Spain some 2000 years prior to coming to/discovered in the SE/East Coast of America (US).

Mike — If you love humor of an adult nature, or just love to share it with people then check out my humor list either by joining by sending a BLANK email to Adulthumor-…@egroups.com or by sharing it by sending it to Adulth…@egroups.com please no advertisements for anything but humor lists/sites as well as edit your posts to delete forwards and like trash. check the list out at https://groups.yahoo.com/group/adulthumor-l/message/ Don’t have to be a member to view or send humor.

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Michael Ninevah

05/06/2001

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I read in a magazine article (sorry, I can’t remember which one) a few years ago about some historical records the author turned up. It turns out that a pagan Danish prince sailed across the Atlantic with about 300 people around the 1100’s or so and was never heard from again. Later, Danish explorers came into contact with the Mohawk Indians, and while, for some reason, the Danes began speaking in Old Dutch, the Mohawks were astounded, and began to speak it fluently, saying it was the language of their ancestors. In light of this, the cultural differences between the Mohawk and other aboriginal groups makes more sense. Also, the pagan Danes would have been much more at home with the aboriginals than their later Christian counterparts with their missionary obsessions, so one can imagine them being “socialized” into aboriginal society.

Nine…@hotmail.com

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Luke Goaman-Dodson

06/06/2001

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“Michael Ninevah” <king…@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:_X8T6.8222$bZ6.138716@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

– show quoted text –

> I read in a magazine article (sorry, I can’t remember which one) a few > years ago about some historical records the author turned up. It turns out > that a pagan Danish prince sailed across the Atlantic with about 300 people > around the 1100’s or so and was never heard from again. Later, Danish > explorers came into contact with the Mohawk Indians, and while, for some > reason, the Danes began speaking in Old Dutch, the Mohawks were astounded, > and began to speak it fluently, saying it was the language of their > ancestors. In light of this, the cultural differences between the Mohawk > and other aboriginal groups makes more sense. Also, the pagan Danes would > have been much more at home with the aboriginals than their later Christian > counterparts with their missionary obsessions, so one can imagine them > being “socialized” into aboriginal society.

ROTFLMAO.

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Mike Adams

03/10/2001

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Sadly they lost it all cause of medling in Sicilian politic (Syracuse). There was colonies of one sort all over the western meditranean, such as Marsaille(sp). Mike Alaska Aggie-tom wrote:

Sadly they lost it all cause of medling in Sicilian politic (Syracuse). There was colonies of one sort all over the western meditranean, such as Marsaille(sp).

Mike Alaska

Aggie-tom wrote:

– show quoted text –

> “roge” <ro…@down52.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message > news:9anoq2$u8g$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk… > > There is a chapter about transatlantic traditions in the book > > The Mayan Prophecies. > > There was a lot of roman amphorae found in the sea at Guanabara > > Bay off the coast of brazil,permission to excavate refused. > > Roman coins dated to AD375 have been found on a beach at > > Beverly Massachusetts., > > In 1972 carthaginian amphorae were found off the coast of Honduras > > permission to excavate was thought to be an affront to the reputation > > of Columbus. > > It does also say that the carthaginians would not allow any foreign ships > > (Greek) to sail past sardinia. > > The Carthaginians were nothing. The Athenians ruled the seas immediately > after they wiped out the Persian fleet. How else did the get the $30 billion > dollars it cost to build the Parthenon in only 6 years. > > > That may have changed after the wars with Rome. > > There are also “Neo-Punic” inscriptions,if real, dated to 0-250 AD > > Roge > > > > “Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote in message > > news:WfIz6.111640$Xt3.15983149@news1.rdc1.az.home.com… > > > Can’t back this up with references. > > > > > > But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the > > > Americas with the legend of Atlantis. > > > > > > On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to > > > sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate, > > > just getting to the Azores or the Canaries. > > > > > > Discussion ? > > > > > > – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects > > > have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, > > > period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched? > > > > > > > > > > > > “Joe Jefferson” <jjst…@primenet.com> wrote in message > > > news:3ACF4D02.4ADC@primenet.com… > > > > Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been a > couple > > of > > > > > Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > > > > > > > Do you have a reference for this? > > > > > > > > — > > > > > > > > Joe of Castle Jefferson > > > > https://www.primenet.com/~jjstrshp/ > > > > Site updated October 1st, 1999. > > > > > > > > “Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of > the > > > > poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the > > > > hand of the wicked.” – Psalm 82:3-4. > > > > > > > > > >

— Love Humor or just love to share it? Then join or send to me at Adulth…@egroups.com To join then send a blank email to adulthumor-…@egroups.com The messages are at https://groups.yahoo.com/group/adulthumor-l/message/

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Ned Latham

03/10/2001

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“Altantis” is not a legend: it’s a myth, created by Plato from garbled memories of Thera and pre-Greek Crete.

Mike Adams wrote in <3BBAB605…@yahoo.com>: > Aggie-tom wrote: > > “roge” wrote: > > > “Rufio” wrote:

> > > > Joe Jefferson wrote: > > > > > Iain Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m not at all an expert on this area but haven’t there been > > > > > > a couple of Greek or Roman ships found in Brazil? > > > > > > > > > > Do you have a reference for this? > > > >

> > > > Can’t back this up with references. > > > > > > > > But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link > > > > the Americas with the legend of Atlantis.

“Altantis” is not a legend: it’s a myth, created by Plato from garbled memories of Thera and pre-Greek Crete.

> > > > On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic > > > > to sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high

> > > > failure rate just getting to the Azores or the Canaries.

> > > > > > > > Discussion ? > > > > > > > > – On the same (?) subject. What Greek remains and cultural objects > > > > have been found on the possible sailing routes, and can their volume, > > > > period, value, etc. indicate how far the sailing route stretched?

The Catastrophist and Historian Charles Hapgood published a book (decades ago) called “Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings”, the most interesting aspect of which was his analysis of of a map that has caused a great deal of puzzlement in scholarly circles. People call it the Piri Re’is map, after hte fifteenth century Turkish Admiral among whose papers it was found.

The Piri Re’is map shows large portions of the coast of Antartica (that’s the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet), the east coast of South America, the west coast of Africa, some of the east coast of North America, and the mediterranean. Hapgood analysed it as centred on the ancient Greek town of Syene (modern Aswan) in Egypt and considered it as compelling evidence that there was a sophisticated high-tech civilisation on Earth some ten thousand years ago.

I think maybe it indicates that the ancient Greeks did a lot more sailing and exploring than we know. The map indicates sophisticated mathematical knowledge; though Hapgood didn’t say so, it looks to me as though its compilation would have required sherical triginometry, which the Greeks had by about 250 BCE, but was later lost until modern times.

> > > There is a chapter about transatlantic traditions in the book > > > The Mayan Prophecies. > > > There was a lot of roman amphorae found in the sea at Guanabara > > > Bay off the coast of brazil,permission to excavate refused. > > > Roman coins dated to AD375 have been found on a beach at > > > Beverly Massachusetts., > > > In 1972 carthaginian amphorae were found off the coast of Honduras > > > permission to excavate was thought to be an affront to the reputation > > > of Columbus. > > > It does also say that the carthaginians would not allow any foreign > > > ships (Greek) to sail past sardinia. > > > > The Carthaginians were nothing. The Athenians ruled the seas > > immediately after they wiped out the Persian fleet. How else > > did the get the $30 billion dollars it cost to build the > > Parthenon in only 6 years.

The cost wasn’t in the speed of the construction, Aggie. They didn’t have complex (expensive) machinery; they didn’t have floodlights for working at night; and the only power they had was muscle.

> Sadly they lost it all cause of medling in Sicilian politic (Syracuse). > There was colonies of one sort all over the western meditranean, such > as Marsaille(sp).

The Greek name was Massilia.

—-snip—-

Ned — * Democracy means “the people rule”. * * Fight for the power of assent. *

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Chris Camfield

03/10/2001

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On 3 Oct 2001 12:40:31 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote: [snip]

>The Catastrophist and Historian Charles Hapgood published a book (decades >ago) called “Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings”, the most interesting aspect >of which was his analysis of of a map that has caused a great deal of >puzzlement in scholarly circles. People call it the Piri Re’is map, after >hte fifteenth century Turkish Admiral among whose papers it was found. > >The Piri Re’is map shows large portions of the coast of Antartica (that’s >the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet), the east coast of South America, >the west coast of Africa, some of the east coast of North America, and the >mediterranean. Hapgood analysed it as centred on the ancient Greek town >of Syene (modern Aswan) in Egypt and considered it as compelling evidence >that there was a sophisticated high-tech civilisation on Earth some ten >thousand years ago. > >I think maybe it indicates that the ancient Greeks did a lot more sailing >and exploring than we know. The map indicates sophisticated mathematical >knowledge; though Hapgood didn’t say so, it looks to me as though its >compilation would have required sherical triginometry, which the Greeks >had by about 250 BCE, but was later lost until modern times.

Except that the coastline wouldn’t have looked as it does under the ice if the ice were removed.

Chris

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Ned Latham

03/10/2001

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Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb20e…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>:

– show quoted text –

> Ned Latham wrote: > [snip] > > The Catastrophist and Historian Charles Hapgood published a book (decades > > ago) called “Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings”, the most interesting aspect > > of which was his analysis of of a map that has caused a great deal of > > puzzlement in scholarly circles. People call it the Piri Re’is map, after > > hte fifteenth century Turkish Admiral among whose papers it was found. > > > > The Piri Re’is map shows large portions of the coast of Antartica (that’s > > the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet), the east coast of South America, > > the west coast of Africa, some of the east coast of North America, and the > > mediterranean. Hapgood analysed it as centred on the ancient Greek town > > of Syene (modern Aswan) in Egypt and considered it as compelling evidence > > that there was a sophisticated high-tech civilisation on Earth some ten > > thousand years ago. > > > > I think maybe it indicates that the ancient Greeks did a lot more sailing > > and exploring than we know. The map indicates sophisticated mathematical > > knowledge; though Hapgood didn’t say so, it looks to me as though its > > compilation would have required sherical triginometry, which the Greeks > > had by about 250 BCE, but was later lost until modern times. > > Except that the coastline wouldn’t have looked as it does under the > ice if the ice were removed.

Please note that I said “that’s the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet”. That point was very important to Hapgood’s hypothesis, and he stressed it: he stated that the only society we know of that could detect the coast is our own, and only in recent times (and therefore it *had* *to* *be* a very ancient society).

Ned — * Democracy means “the people rule”. * * Fight for the power of assent. *

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Chris Camfield

03/10/2001

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On 3 Oct 2001 15:09:10 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote: >Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb20e…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>: >> Ned Latham wrote: >> [snip] [snip]

On 3 Oct 2001 15:09:10 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote:

>Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb20e…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>: >> Ned Latham wrote: >> [snip] [snip]

>> >> Except that the coastline wouldn’t have looked as it does under the >> ice if the ice were removed. > >Please note that I said “that’s the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet”. >That point was very important to Hapgood’s hypothesis, and he stressed >it: he stated that the only society we know of that could detect the >coast is our own, and only in recent times (and therefore it *had* *to* >*be* a very ancient society).

But what he was comparing was the map against the coastline *under the ice sheet*. If those tons upon tons of ice were removed, the coastline would *not* look the same.

There have been … long discussions about the map in sci.archaeology, I believe. If you’re interested, you might want to do a search at deja.com.

Chris

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Eric Stevens

03/10/2001

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On Sat, 07 Apr 2001 17:37:58 GMT, “Rufio” <davec…@home.com> wrote:

>Can’t back this up with references. > >But I seem to recall a theory that Greeks sailing routes may link the >Americas with the legend of Atlantis. >

>On the down side, I don’t see how there would be enough traffic to

>sustain the legend, as there must have been a very high failure rate,

>just getting to the Azores or the Canaries.

I don’t know about the Americas as it does not make sense to get there from the Mediterranean via the Azores (winds etc). But at certain times of the year it does make sense to sail out of the Mediterranean and catch the Azores high to swing around the Azores and shoot up the English channel. This has for long been a well known sailing route and there is a hint in the Odyssey that the ancient Greeks nmay have known this.

I have earlier quoted Spanuth’s argument (actually not his, but merely his presentation) that Odysseus, when leaving Calypso and departing from the island of Ogygia, actually travelled the route from the Azores, up the English channel, to Heligoland. It fits, including course by star sights and elapsed time, all of which is very interesting. Somebody even in those days seemd to know the sailing instructions.

Opponents of this suggestion have argued that the 20 days required for the journey is a necessary feature of the story as it was decreed by the gods that Odysseus should take 20 days. Somehow, this seems to be confusing cause and effect unless the proponents of this view-point believe that there are such gods, they did so decree and Homer merely filled the role of faithful reporter. It is equally likely that, with or without the gods, the story quotes 20 days as that is how long it took to make that particular journey.

**IF** the theory that Oddyseus departed from the Azores and sailed up the English channel is correct, what he found on the end of that journey, (the Phaecians) has interesting implications for the interpretation of ancient history and possibly the location of Atlantis (which is where we came in).

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Ned Latham

04/10/2001

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You are being very obscure. In what way would the removal of the ice change the shape of the coast? Are you postulating that the land would rise? And in what way is that relevant to observation of the coast *under* the ice sheet anyway? Consider: 200

Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb537…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>: > Ned Latham wrote: > > Chris Camfield wrote:

> > > Ned Latham wrote: > > [snip] > > > > Except that the coastline wouldn’t have looked as it does under the > > > ice if the ice were removed. > > > > Please note that I said “that’s the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet”. > > That point was very important to Hapgood’s hypothesis, and he stressed > > it: he stated that the only society we know of that could detect the > > coast is our own, and only in recent times (and therefore it *had* *to* > > *be* a very ancient society). > > But what he was comparing was the map against the coastline *under the > ice sheet*. If those tons upon tons of ice were removed, the coastline > would *not* look the same.

You are being very obscure. In what way would the removal of the ice change the shape of the coast? Are you postulating that the land would rise?

And in what way is that relevant to observation of the coast *under* the ice sheet anyway? Consider: 2000 years ago, the ice (as far as we know) would have been pretty much as it is now: if the map is based on ancient Greek observations, there’s no need to think about the effects of removing the ice.

> There have been … long discussions about the map in sci.archaeology, > I believe. If you’re interested, you might want to do a search at > deja.com.

Mmm, thanks. Do you have some thread names?

Ned — * Democracy means “the people rule”. * * Fight for the power of assent. *

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Ned Latham

04/10/2001

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Eric Stevens wrote in <mailto:8mrmrt4jnj4sqo1t81ro4vood7nuriv1br@4ax.com>: —-snip—-

Eric Stevens wrote in <8mrmrt4jnj4sqo1t81ro4vood7nuriv1br@4ax.com>:

—-snip—-

> I have earlier quoted Spanuth’s argument (actually not his, but merely > his presentation) that Odysseus, when leaving Calypso and departing > from the island of Ogygia, actually travelled the route from the > Azores, up the English channel, to Heligoland. It fits, including > course by star sights and elapsed time, all of which is very > interesting. Somebody even in those days seemd to know the sailing > instructions. > > Opponents of this suggestion have argued that the 20 days required for > the journey is a necessary feature of the story as it was decreed by > the gods that Odysseus should take 20 days. Somehow, this seems to be > confusing cause and effect unless the proponents of this view-point > believe that there are such gods, they did so decree and Homer merely > filled the role of faithful reporter. It is equally likely that, with > or without the gods, the story quotes 20 days as that is how long it > took to make that particular journey.

And perhaps the Odyssey is not a true day-by-day account of the travels of a single individual who existed, but a rollicking good yarn with elements from numerous travel stories. I see no reason to suppose that Ogygia is in the Azores and Phaeacia is Heligoland: he could well have used sailing instructions more or less randomly, suiting his poetic requirements rather than geography.

—-snip—-

Ned — * Democracy means “the people rule”. * * Fight for the power of assent. *

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Sum Dum Gai

04/10/2001

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In article <slrn9rnd9q….@arthur.valhalla.net.au>, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote:

> Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb537…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>: > > Ned Latham wrote: > > > Chris Camfield wrote: > > > > Ned Latham wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > > > Except that the coastline wouldn’t have looked as it does under the > > > > ice if the ice were removed. > > > > > > Please note that I said “that’s the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet”. > > > That point was very important to Hapgood’s hypothesis, and he stressed > > > it: he stated that the only society we know of that could detect the > > > coast is our own, and only in recent times (and therefore it *had* *to* > > > *be* a very ancient society). > > > > But what he was comparing was the map against the coastline *under the > > ice sheet*. If those tons upon tons of ice were removed, the coastline > > would *not* look the same. > > You are being very obscure. In what way would the removal of the ice change > the shape of the coast? Are you postulating that the land would rise? > > And in what way is that relevant to observation of the coast *under* the > ice sheet anyway? Consider: 2000 years ago, the ice (as far as we know) > would have been pretty much as it is now: if the map is based on ancient > Greek observations, there’s no need to think about the effects of removing > the ice. >

<surface> No but before the ice the land would have been higher. There are million upon million of tons of ice covering antartica and the resultant weight has caused some sinking of the landmass, as well if that ice were liquid the sea level itself would be higher. Now of all the talk I have seen on verifying the map I have only seen comparisons to old maps corrected for transcription errors (I always suspect modern correction of ancient documents) and modern coastlines. The sea level itself has risen and fallen over the past 4,000 years making any resemblance between a coastline 4,00 years ago and today highly suspect. Show me a good analysis of the inks and paper dating the map, even within a decade or four, and I might be inclined to change my skeptics tune. For now the map belongs here only in that it supports the modern myth of “Giants of The Golden Age” or wise Ancients whose knowledge was passed down to us. <dive dive dive, rig for silent running>

> > > There have been … long discussions about the map in sci.archaeology, > > I believe. If you’re interested, you might want to do a search at > > deja.com. > > Mmm, thanks. Do you have some thread names? > > Ned

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Eric Stevens

04/10/2001

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On 4 Oct 2001 00:53:55 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote: >Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb537…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>:

On 4 Oct 2001 00:53:55 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote:

>Chris Camfield wrote in <3bbb537…@news1.on.sympatico.ca>:

>> Ned Latham wrote: >> > Chris Camfield wrote: >> > > Ned Latham wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > > Except that the coastline wouldn’t have looked as it does under the >> > > ice if the ice were removed. >> > >> > Please note that I said “that’s the coast, not the edge of the ice sheet”. >> > That point was very important to Hapgood’s hypothesis, and he stressed >> > it: he stated that the only society we know of that could detect the >> > coast is our own, and only in recent times (and therefore it *had* *to* >> > *be* a very ancient society). >> >> But what he was comparing was the map against the coastline *under the >> ice sheet*. If those tons upon tons of ice were removed, the coastline >> would *not* look the same. > >You are being very obscure. In what way would the removal of the ice change >the shape of the coast? Are you postulating that the land would rise?

Isostaic rebound. With the weight removed the Antarctic crust may rise by possibly kilometers. That will certainly affect the shape of the coast line.

> >And in what way is that relevant to observation of the coast *under* the >ice sheet anyway? Consider: 2000 years ago, the ice (as far as we know) >would have been pretty much as it is now: if the map is based on ancient >Greek observations, there’s no need to think about the effects of removing >the ice.

I understood that this as argued as the shape of the coast once the ice melts. The assumption that apart from revealing the coast line, nothing else will change.

> >> There have been … long discussions about the map in sci.archaeology, >> I believe. If you’re interested, you might want to do a search at >> deja.com. > >Mmm, thanks. Do you have some thread names?

Try https://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search

Eric Stevens

There are two classes of people. Those who divide people into two classes, and those who don’t. I belong to the second class.

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Eric Stevens

04/10/2001

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On 4 Oct 2001 01:10:40 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote: >Eric Stevens wrote in <mailto:8mrmrt4jnj4sqo1t81ro4vood7nuriv1br@4ax.com>:

On 4 Oct 2001 01:10:40 GMT, nen…@news.apex.met.au (Ned Latham) wrote:

>Eric Stevens wrote in <8mrmrt4jnj4sqo1t81ro4vood7nuriv1br@4ax.com>:

– show quoted text –

> >—-snip—- > >> I have earlier quoted Spanuth’s argument (actually not his, but merely >> his presentation) that Odysseus, when leaving Calypso and departing >> from the island of Ogygia, actually travelled the route from the >> Azores, up the English channel, to Heligoland. It fits, including >> course by star sights and elapsed time, all of which is very >> interesting. Somebody even in those days seemd to know the sailing >> instructions. >> >> Opponents of this suggestion have argued that the 20 days required for >> the journey is a necessary feature of the story as it was decreed by >> the gods that Odysseus should take 20 days. Somehow, this seems to be >> confusing cause and effect unless the proponents of this view-point >> believe that there are such gods, they did so decree and Homer merely >> filled the role of faithful reporter. It is equally likely that, with >> or without the gods, the story quotes 20 days as that is how long it >> took to make that particular journey. > >And perhaps the Odyssey is not a true day-by-day account of the travels >of a single individual who existed, but a rollicking good yarn with >elements from numerous travel stories. I see no reason to suppose that >Ogygia is in the Azores and Phaeacia is Heligoland: he could well have >used sailing instructions more or less randomly, suiting his poetic >requirements rather than geography. >

Could be but it fits the geography rather well. here is what I posted some time ago.

Please bear in mind that Jurgen Spanuth is trying to prove that Atlantis was an island at the base of the Heligoland peninsula. The point of this quote is not to support his thesis but that Odysseus’s sailing directions fit better outside the Mediterranean than they do within.

Begin lengthy quote from ‘The Atlantis of the North’. —————————————————–

The correspondences between the two descriptions are so numerous that one might suppose that Solon or Plato had used Homer’s Phaeacia as a model and copied from it. However, this idea can easily be shown to be mistaken. In the Atlantis document there are many statements that are not found in Homer’s account, and therefore cannot be taken from it. For example, in the Atlantis document the colours of the cliffs that stood before the island are correctly given as black, white and red; the distance between the coast and the ‘hill of no great size’ on which the city stood is given as 50 stades; it is reported that orichalc (amber) is ‘mined in a number of’ localities’; the world-pillar in the midst of the temple is described. Finally, we are told of the destruction of the island by earthquake and flood, and of the ‘sea of mud’ that replaced it. The great military expedition of the Atlanteans through Europe, the successful defence of Athens, the march of the Atlanteans through Asia Minor, their alliance with the Libyans and Tyrrhenians and the assault on Egypt, and so on, are all described. Besides, Solon stated that ‘he and all his countrymen were almost entirely ignorant about antiquity’ (Ti. 22a). All of which shows that Solon did not use any Greek source, not even Homer’s Phaeacia; rather, as we have repeatedly pointed out, he drew his account from ancient Egyptian temple inscriptions and papyrus texts. The two accounts are alike because both describe the same place, not because one was copied from the other. The same is evidently true of the tradition concerning the Hyperboreans. This was copied neither from Homer’s Phaeacia nor from the Atlantis document. Rather it is, as E. Jung stated in 1939, ‘a very ancient tribal legend’ of the Dorians, ‘which preserves accurately the memory’ of the North European origins and southward migration of the ruling classes in Greece and Rome’ (1939, p. 33f.). It is no argument to assert against the location of Phaeacia in northern Europe that Homer could not have had any knowledge of so distant a region. We know that information about northern countries came to Greece with the amber trade, which was at its height in Mycenacan times. Homer evidently wove this information into his Odyssey. He sang also of other northern lands besides Phaeacia; for example there are the verses on the land of the Cimmerians (0d. 11.3lff) or those on his journey to the Laestrygones:

“For six davs we forged ahead, never lying up even at night, and on the seventh wl came to Telepylus, Lamus’ stronghold in the Laestrvgonian land, where shepherds bringing in their flocks at night hall and are answered bv their fellows driving out at dawn. For in this land nightfall and morning ti-ead so closely on each other’s heels that a man who could do without sleep might earn a double set of wages, one as a neatherd and the other 1’or shepherding white flocks of s.heep. (0d. 10.8Off.)”

Krates of Mallos (about 170 BC) pointed out that this refers to the short summer nights of the extreme northern latitudes. Hesiod had asserted that day and night are neighbours in the far north, where Atlas stands:

Atlas, son of lapetus, stands staunchly upholding the wide heaven upon his head and with arms unwearying sustains it, there where Night and Day come close to each other and speak a word of greeting and cross on the great threshold Hes’od Theogony 747-9

‘Here we have described the short summer night so characteristic of’ the northern latitudes, which must have made a deep impression on travellers from the south… It is only natural to find in this passage a reference to the “white nights” of the north, as do Mullenhoff, Much, and most other commentators.’ (Gutenbrunner 1939, p. 34.) Odysseus describes the land of the Cimmerians as being by ‘the deep-flowing River of Ocean and the frontiers of the world’, i.e. in the North Sea. As Posidonius (c. 135-c. 50 BC) explained, ‘The Greeks formerly called the Cimbri “Cimmerians”‘ (in Strabo 7.2). Plutarch too made it clear that the Cimbri and the Cimmerians were the same; this people, he says: ‘Live on the farthest sea, in a dark and tree-covered land, where the rays of the sun hardly penetrate, in the neighbourhood of the north pole’ (‘Life of Marius’ 11). Diodorus said of the Cimbri, who a few decades before his birth had attacked the Roman Empire and only in 102 BC been crushed by Marius at Aquae Sextiae: ‘It was they who in ancient times overran all Asia [i.e. Asia Minor] and were called Cimmerians, time having slightly corrupted the word into the name of Cimbrians, as they are now called’ (5.22). So the Cimmerians were identical with the Cimbri, whose home was the ‘Cimbrian peninsula’. Eratosthenes, arguing that the Odyssey was nothing but fantasy, accused Homer of placing in southern lands places and situations which could only be found in the extreme north. Strabo (first century BC) devoted almost the whole of the first book of his Geography to defending Homer against this charge. He argued that since his descriptions show a knowledge remarkable for his time of extreme northern latitudes, and since he even laid some of Odysseus’s adventures in the North Sea, he must have owed his information to the Cimmerians themselves, who had at an carlv period raided Greece (quoted in E. Krause 1891, p. 37f.). Tacitus wrote in the Germania: ‘Ulysses (Odysseus) also, in all those fabled wanderings of his, is supposed by some to have reached the northern sea and visited German lands, and to have founded and named Asciburgium, a town on the Rhine inhabited to this day’ (ch. 3). Claudian also (fourth century AD) placed many of Odysseus’s adventures in the North Sea (In Ruflnum 133 1′.); and Procopius (AD 500-562) agreed with him (Histories 4). Modern research has reached the same conclusions as these Greek and Roman authors. F.G. Welcker published in 1832 a detailed study of the question, in which he concluded, on the evidence of many ancient authors, that Homer’s Phaeacia must be in the North Sea area. He considered that these and other traditions came from the Hyperborean regions. Later the distinguished Germanist E. Krause showed, by comparing Nordic traditions and legends with those that are preserved in the Iliad and Odyssey that we have here the very ancient traditions of a Northern people who migrated to the south’ (1891, p. 38). ‘What we have here is perhaps an old tradition which reached the Greeks in their original homeland, to the north of that which they occupied in historical times, when they were more closely connected with the Germanic peoples. Indeed we may see here traces of that Bronze Age Greek-German connection, with which we have already explained the appearance in Greek of the originally Germanic word pyrgos’ ” (Gutenbrunner 1939, p. 35.) So, in agreement with Apollonius and the other writers, Phaeacia may confidently be identified with the ‘holy island of Electris’ in the amber country, and also with the royal island of Atlantis.

THE COURSE TO BASILEIA

In order to show the astonishing knowledge that Homer had of the royal island of the Phaeacians, the easiest way will be to accompany Odysseus on his journey there, and in his experiences on the island. For this journey, he had precise sailing instructions given him by the goddess Calypso, on whose lonely island of Ogygla he had stayed for seven years. Students of Homer have often noted that in the Odyssey there are sailing instructions that read like books of instructions for travellers, which must have existed at that time (Schadewaldt 1942, p. 76). Clearly, Homer must have had before him such a descriptive account, or periplus, that gave exact instructions on the course to set, and the distances between the various islands and coasts. The course would be given by the constellations or by the prevailing winds. The distances are reckoned by a sailing day (distance covered in twenty-four hours) of 1000 stades, i.e. 100 nautical miles. This can be worked out from the various distances given in the Homeric poems (K,5ster 1923, p. 179; Hennig 1925, p. 109, Hennig 1934, p. 42; Berve 1942, p. 62; P. Herrmann 1952, p. 172; Pauly and Wissowa 1912, s.v. ,Nachrichtenwesen’). Other writers in antiquity also reckoned according to this average day’s distance (Koster 1923, p. 179), which seems to be if anything too conservative an estimate. In the time of Herodotus they reckoned with a day’s sail of 1300 stades; and in the Periplus of Scylax (fourth century BC) the distance from Carthage to the pillars of Heracles (8400 stades = 840 nautical miles) is given as seven days, which gives 1200 stades per day. The information given in the sailing instructions which Odysseus received for his voyage from Ogygia to Phaeacia has been tested by experts. A. Breusing, former director of the School of Navigation in Bremen, stated that ‘the nautical information in Homer is very intelligently thought out, and remarkably true to the facts’ (1889). Hennig said of these sailing directions: ‘The instructions of Calypso are – though admittedly one could not tell this at first sight – remarkably precise, so that even today any sailor by following them could hold a clear and accurate course. It is in fact one of the strongest pieces of evidence that Homer took his descriptions from life, and not from fantasy.’ (1934, p. 44.) Calypso’s sailing directions are as follows:

“It was with a happy heart that the good Odysseus spread his sail to catch the wind and used his seamanship to keep his boat straight with the steering-oar. There he sat and never closed his eyes in sleep, but kept them on the Plciades, or watched Bo6tes slowly set, or the Great Bear, nicknamed the Wain, which always wheels round in the same place, and looks across at Orlon the Hunter with a wary eye. It was this constellation, the only one which never bathes in Ocean’s Stream, that the wise goddess Calypso had told him to keep on his left hand as he made across the sea. So for seventeen days he sailed on his course, and on the eighteenth there hove into sight the.shadowy mountains of the Phaeacians’ country, which jutted out to meet him there. The land looked like a shield laid on the misty sea. (0d. 5.269ff.)”

To test this course, it is first necessary to find out what its starting point is. At the beginning of his voyage, Odysseus is on the island of Ogygia, which lies across a ‘vast expanse of salt sea water’ and is uninhabited by men. This island is also called the’navel of the sea’. On it there is a great cave, in which the goddess dwells. The ancient Greek scholiast noted that Ogygia must have lain in the Ocean Stream. Strabo too said as much, and pointed out that there is nowhere in the Mediterranean where one could sail for seventeen days, with a following wind, without touching land. Distances of this kind are only found in the Ocean. Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Mo11endorf’pointed out that the name itself” nesos ogygie, shows that it lay in the outer ocean, since ogygie and okeane have the same meaning. The French Hellenist Victor Berard translated nesos Ogygle as ‘l’ile de 1’Ocean’, ‘the Ocean island’ – taking ogygie not as a proper name but as an adjective. Now, outside the Straits of Gibraltar, which Homer calls Scylla and Charybdis (Breusing 1889, p. 66f.; Hennig 1934, p. 39f.; Schulten 1950, p. 57; Herrmann 1952, p. 162 etc.), there are the following islands: the Canaries, Madeira and the Azores. All of them have been suggested as being Ogygla (Hennig 1925, p. 4 1; 1934, p. 43; Schulten 1948, p. 683 f.; P. Herrmann 1952, p. 126). But we may reject the Canaries and Madeira for the following reasons: (1) 0gygia is repeatedly stated to be empty of human habitation, but the Canaries and Madeira have been inhabited since the Stone Age. (2) Odysseus is told to steer, during the same night, by Bootes and the Pleiades. According to Villinger, in the summer, when Odysseus made his voyage, these two constellations are never visible on the same night south of latitude 35 (Hennig 1934, p. 44). So Odysseus must have been on an island north of latitude 35 – and this leaves only the Azores, which consequently must have been the starting point of his seventeen-day sail to Phaeacia. There are other reasons for this identification. Odysseus had passed Scylla and Charybdis, which Hennig on various grounds identified as the Straits of Gibraltar. From there, after a voyage of nine days, he reached Ogygia on the tenth. According to the reckoning used by Homer, in nine and a half days he would have covered 9500 stades, or 950 nautical miles. This corresponds exactly with the distance between Gibraltar and the island of Sao Miguel in the Azores (952 nautical miles). . Ogygia is called ‘the navel of the sea’. This is in fact the old name of Sao Miguel. This island, with its 23,000 m high Pico Alto, bore, up to the eighteenth century, the title umbilicus maris (Wilamowitz-Mo11endorf 1914, p. 1042f.; 1916, p. 497f.; Hennig 1934, p. 41), not merely on account of the shape of its old volcanic cone, but perhaps for another reason. The word omphalos was used by the Greeks to mean not only the navel, but any middle point. For example the stone on the race-track around which the runners had to turn – the mid-point of the course. According to information kindly supplied by the Director of the School of Navigation in Liubeck, Dr Mein Harms, sailing ships when thev used to go from Gibraltar to the North Sea ports, entered on an ?obligatory course which led from Gibraltar to the Azores, round the latter and then north-cast by east to the English Channel, and thence to the North Sea. This course was forced upon them by the prevailing winds and currents. For the Azores are the mid-point of alr- and seacurrents which turn clockwise around them. The Gulf Stream, which flows north of the Azores in a north-easterly direction, divides at Ushant: one arm flows through the Channel, the other is diverted southwards along the west coast of’France and flows through the Bav of Biscay along the west coast of Spain to Gibraltar. There it turns westward, and circles the Azores, to rejoin the Gulf Stream once more. And since an ‘Azores high’ is an extremely common, indeed normal, meteorological condition, and since winds in the northern hemisphere move clockwise around an area of high pressure, the winds too on the west coasts of Europe generally blow from north to south. A sailing ship, if it attempted to sail up the west coast of Spain, would therefore be going against both wind andcurrent, which would be time-consuming and also, because of’the nearby coast, dangerous. But if it sailed with the normal winds and current, round the Azores, the vovage would be both quicker and safer, in spite of the greater distance. The Azores, with the Pico Alto forming a sea-mark visible from far off , form the omphalos, the mid-point, of this course, for north of the islands the ship will enter the Gulf Stream, moving north-cast at 3 knots. In the Channel, with a west wind, the speed may be greatly increased – speeds of 15 knots have been recorded. The Gulf Stream north of the Azores is about 150 km broad, its dark indigo can be clearly distinguished against the cold bottle green of the northern seas, and in winter the temperature change across the current boundary is so abrupt that as a ship crosses into the Gulf Stream her bow may be momentarily in water 20 degrees warmer than that at her stern, as though the ‘cold wall’ were a solid barrier separating the two water masses’ (Carson 1956, p. 142). It is therefore not hard for a ship to keep to the Gulf Stream. The Mycenacan seafarers must have known this ‘obligatory course, from very early times. This is not surprising, for we know that in the Neolithic period the bearers of the Megalithic culture from the North Sea area were sailing to Spain, North Africa and the Canaries, and taking their culture with them. And the seafarers who had brought tin from Britain or amber from near Heligoland to the Mediterranean must have taken this course in their northward voyage. When in the Odyssey (1.52) it is said that Atlas, ancestor of the Atlanteans, ‘knows the sea in all its depths’, this may be a reference to the knowledge of the sea that men owed to Atlas and his descendants. So it is likely that in Odysseus’s sailing directions we have a most ancient description of the ‘obligatory Course’ of ships sailing from the Mediterranean to the North Sea. So the omphalos thalasses, the ‘navel of the sea’, was Sao Miguel in the Azores, which continued to bear this name as late as the Middle Ages. When Odysseus began his voyage, there was an’Azores high’, with a ‘warm and gentle breeze’ (0d. 5.268), a ‘following wind’ (ouron opisthen) (0d. 5.167) from Ogygia. He had been told to steer by the rising of Bootes and the Pleiades. R. Hennig consulted an expert on prehistoric astronomy and discovered that at that period these two constellations rose ‘almost exactly at the same point in the north-cast (to be precise, north-cast by east)’. Odysseus kept this course, the wind and current with him, right up the Channel and into the. North Sea. The voyage lasted seventeen days. On the eighteenth he saw the cliffs of the Phaeacian coast coming into sight (0d. 5.279). It can be objected that he must have passed through the Straits of Dover and yet there is no mention of a coast to either north or south. But this is true of other itineraries which Homer gave for Odysseus or the Greek fleet.

“We must accustom ourselves to the fact that on the voyage from the Syrtes to Sardinia there is no mention of Tunis or Sicily, just as on the way from Ismarus to Malea we are told nothing about the intervening islands. The poet is not writing a travel diary, with description of every routine stopping place, which any seaman knew already. He is concerned with the extraordinary and the unexpected, which even in a seafaring nation was not in everyone’s experience. (Zeller 1959, p. 49.”

Homer was not a captain keeping a log, but a poet who made his – possibly fictional – hero experience all the adventures and visit all the coasts and islands of Mycenacan sailors’ tales. Certainly there were itineraries, with sailing directions and descriptions of all the coasts with which the Mycenaeans had trading contact. A. Breusing (1889) and Schadewaldt (1942) have pointed this out. Homer has cross-fertilized these two strains; the factual information of the itineraries and the seamen’s yarns that were told in the harbour taverns. So his work is a mixture of reliable geographical data, and the true or invented experiences of Mycenaean travellers. As 1 wrote in 1955:

“Homer has clearly used old travellers guides from the Mycenacan age, but not stuck to them slavishly. His only object in most cases – indeed as far as we can tell at present, in all cases – was to give the direction, length, and destination of a voyage, but not to describe the coasts which the traveller passes en route. On the journey through the Mediterranean to Scylla and Charybdis (Gibraltar) Homer mentions none of the islands or coasts that one would have to pass. On the way from Crete to ‘holy Ilion’, too, none of the islands that lie between are mentioned. But who would doubt, on that account, that Odysseus went to Troy? (Spanuth 1955, p. 97).”

On the eighteenth day, according to the reckoning that Homer used for distances, Odysseus would have found himself 1750 nautical miles from Ogygia (Sao Miguel) and therefore about 10 nautical miles from Heligoland (Sao Miguel to Heligoland = 1760 nautical miles). A good sailors’ guide -should include an accurate description of the coast towards which he is steering. In modern sailors’ handbooks there are always sketches of the coastlines; the same was true of’ such handbooks in antiquity (Koster, 1924, p. 188). The coast of Phaeacia ‘looked like a shield laid on the misty sea’ – a shield is a flat surface, from which a boss protrudes in the middle. It is easy to see this as a description of the cliffs of Heligoland (the boss) and the low coastline of Basileia behind it. As Odysseus approached the cliff s, Poseidon – who had a grudge against him – noticed his arrival and struck his ship with a sudden storm. Odysseus was thrown up on to the rocks. Now follows a striking description of this great crag in front of the Phaeacian coast:

“But when he had come within call of the shore, he heard the thunder of’surf’ on a rocky coast. With an angry roar the great seas were battering at the ironbound land and all was veiled in spray. There were no coves, no harbours that would hold a ship; nothing but headlands jutting out, sheer rock, and jagged reef’s. When he realized this, Odysseus’ knees quaked and his courage ebbed. He groaned in misery as he summed up the situation to himself’.”

“When I had given up hope, Zeus let me see the land, and 1 have taken all the trouble to swim to it across those leagues of water, only to find no way whatever of getting out of this grey surf and making my escape. Offshore, the pointed reefs set in a raging sea; behind, a smooth cliff rising sheer; deep water near in; and never a spot where a man could stand on both his feet and get to safety. If I try to land, I may be lifted by a roller and dashed against the solid rock – in which case I’d have had my trouble for nothing. While, if I swim farther down the coast on the chance otfinding a natural harbour where the beaches take the waves aslant, it is only too likely that another squall will pounce on me, and drive me out to.join the deep-sea fish, where all my groans would do no good. Or some monster might be inspired to attack me from the depths. Amphitrite has a name for mothering plenty of’ such creatures in her seas; and 1 am well aware how the great Earthshaker detests me.”

“This inward debate was cut short by a tremendous wave which swept him forward to the rugged shore, where he would have been flayed and all his bones been broken, had not the bright-eyed goddess Athene put it into his head to dash in and lay hold of a rock with both his hands. He clung there groaning while the great wave marched by. But no sooner had he escaped its fury that it struck him once more with the full force of its backward rush and flung him far out to sea. Pieces of skin stripped from his sturdy hands were left sticking to the crag, thick as the pebbles that stick to the suckers of a squid when he is torn from his hole. The great surge passed over Odysseus’ head and there the unhappy man would have come to an unpredestined end, if Athene had not inspired him with a wise idea. Getting clear of the coastal breakers as he struggled to the surface, he now swam along outside them, keeping an eve on the land, in the hope of lighting on some natural harbour with shelving beaches. Presently his progress brought him off the mouth of a fast-running stream, and it struck him that this was the best spot he could find, for it was not only clear of rocks but sheltered from the winds. (0d. 5.400 f.)”.

Never has the ‘rugged shore’, with its “jagged reefs’ and ‘smooth clilf rising sheer’ of Heligoland been more vividly described than in these verses of Homer. Poseidon had sent his storm from the north (0d. 5.385) and so Odysseus was carried round the south point of the cliff massif into the mouth of’ the river that flowed through the plain behind it. Apollonius (see page 252) identified this as the amber river Eridanus, and gave the name of its god as Aegacus. Odysseus swam into the mouth of this river, where ‘it was not only clear of rocks but sheltered from the winds’. The poet evidently pictured the river as running from cast to west, for only then could one of its banks – the north one – provide shelter from a northerly wind; and Odysseus had been sailing towards the coast from west south-west. The description fits the contemporary facts exactly, since the Eridanus/Eider then flowed into the North Sea immediately south of Heligoland and its course ran from cast to west. Even today the old river bed can be seen clearly on every sea chart, engraved deep on the sea bottom. As late as the Middle Ages the god of this river, called Aegis or Ogis was held in honour, and is said to have had a temple there (Jensen 1900, p. 100). But before Odysseus could clamber ashore he had another problem. He had seen the flat shore of Phaeacia, without cliffs, and the current had carried him into the mouth of’ the river. Then, however, the direction of’the flow changed and the hero was no longer able to swim against the stream to reach the shelter of the bank. He prayed to the god of the river and a marvellous thing happened: the god checked the current, and it carried Odysseus in the opposite direction, to the land (0d. 5.451 f.). Eratosthenes, who considered that all Homer’s stories were pure moonshine, picked out this description of the upward-flowing stream as clear evidence that the poet was a liar, ‘since he made a river flow backwards, a thing quite impossible anywhere in the world’ (quoted in Weicker 1833, p. 20). Eratosthenes was wrong. On any coast where there are tides, the rivers flow upstream at their mouths twice a day. Hennig says on this point:

“It must have seemed to them [the Greeks] miraculous that a river could flow backwards or, at high tide, stop flowing into the sea. The hero Odysseus owed his safe landing on Phaeacia to such ‘miracle’. But in the Mediterranean such a thing is unknown. This seems to me to be the final proof. Nothing else shows so clearly that Homer must have seen an actual river … It is absolutely out of the question that a Greek could have described, purely by poetic inspiration, such a phenomenon as the tidal current in a river mouth, which occurred in no river known to him. This alone should be enough to show that in the description of Phaeacia we have no mere product of fantasy, but that the poet had factual descriptions, indeed remarkably precise and correct ones, available to him when we consider that Pytheas, 400 years later than Homer, was the first of the Greeks to study the ebb and flow of the ocean tides, and also the tidal currents and their effect on rivers – then the precise description in the fifth book of’the Odyssey seems all the more amazing. (Hennig 1925, p. 521′.)”

I agree entirely with this opinion and the following passages 1’rom this episode in the Odyssey will act as further proof. ‘He unwound the goddess’s veil from his waist and let it drop into the river as it rushed out to sea’ – so Homer tells a few verses later on. Then he tells us how the next morning Nausicaa, daughter of’King Alcinous of’the Phaeacians, brought the laundry down to the river ‘in which there was enough clear water always bubbling up and swirling by to clean the dirtiest clothes’ (0d. 6.87). The phrase kalon hydor, which Homer used here, must surely be understood as ‘sweet water’, since everyone knows that salt water would not ‘clean the dirtiest clothes’. So the next morning the river was no longer running with salt water but sweet. This could only happen in a river where during the flood tide salt water is driven into the mouth, while at ebb tide sweet water flows out. At another place Homer says that there was ‘high water’ in the harbour, so the Phaeacians chose that time to launch their ship into the ‘deep water’ (0d. 8.50f). This seems to show that there was also ‘low water’, when they could not have done so. So the account which Homer had before him,clearly described the tides, and the tidal current on the coast of Phaeacia; all this supports the idea that he was using an itinerary of the time. Recently, Professor K. Bartholamaus of Dusseldorf has checked once more the astronomical and nautical data given in the sixth book of the Odyssey, and sent the results of his calculations to me in a twenty-page article. In his covering letter (12 February 1976) he said:

“An important supporting argument [for the thesis that Phaeacia is the island beside Heligoland] is the course followed by Odysseus. I have therefore personally checked it, and tests at the planetarium at Bochum support my calculations. There is only one possible course, one possible landing point. The centre of both constellations (centre of Bootes = lzar, centre of Pleiades = Alcyone), always points to 55 degrees, which leads from the Azores through the English Channel in the direction of Heligoland.”

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