Delambre, Jean Baptiste Joseph

Published December 12, 2012

Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre (1749-1822) was a French astronomer and mathematician and in his 1819 book, Histoire de l’astronomie du moyen age, he misinterpreted a passage in Isaac Casaubon’s commentary on Strabo, which contributed to two centuries of misunderstanding Aristotle’s attitude to Plato’s Atlantis.

In 2012 Thorwald C. Franke published an English translation^[880] of his Aristoteles und Atlantis in which he provides convincing evidence that Aristotle had accepted the reality of Atlantis and hopefully in doing so, Franke has to some extent. redressed the damage done by Delambre’s error.

Tagged Aristotle, Isaac Casaubon, Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre, Strabo, Thorwald C. Franke

Aristotle

Published May 31, 2010

Aristotle (c.384-322 BC) was born at Stagira, a Grecian colony in Macedonia, and died in Chalcis. He became Plato’s pupil at the age of seventeen and developed to become one of the trinity of the greatest Greek philosophers, along with Socrates and Plato. In turn, Aristotle was the tutor of Alexander the Great. However, Aristotle was something of a ‘know-all’, and had his own blind spots. Katherine Folliot mentioned that Aristotle ‘held all non-Greeks in utter contempt’ clouding his judgement regarding any story originating in Egypt. John Michael Greer^[³³⁵^.¹⁶^] points out that Aristotle consistently disagreed with his teacher, Plato. Aristotle’s geographical knowledge is highly suspect, claiming as he did that both the Danube and the Guadalquivir rose in the Pyrenees. However, it was Aristotle, revered by the Church, who maintained that the universe was earth-centred, a view that led to the persecution of Galileo and the burning of Giordano Bruno for their ‘heretical’ cosmological views.

>James R. Smith wrote ^[1947] “First attempts at putting a dimension on the sphere are credited to Aristotle who recorded a diameter of 400,000 Stades. This figure could vary from 84,000 to 63,000 km, depending on our choice of conversion factor. But how he arrived at his value is unknown.”<

According to Diogenes Laertius, Aristotle disagreed with his teacher on philosophical matters while Plato was still alive, causing Plato to remark, “Aristotle has kicked me, as foals do their mothers when they are born.” While there is evidence that Aristotle never lost his high personal regard for Plato, the fact remains, that in his later writings, he never mentions Plato except to refute his doctrines, maintaining that the Platonic method is fatal to science.

Thorwald C. Franke refers specifically to Aristotle’s silence on the subject of Atlantis in his Aristotle and Atlantis^[0706.30] in the following manner, “After all, if Aristotle were against the existence of Atlantis, one might have expected him to document his disagreement with Plato in some way and dispute the matter at hand. (Ingemar) Düring^[1421]expresses what every person familiar with ancient literature knows well: ‘in accordance with the prevailing practice of that time, one mentioned the author of an opinion only if one did not agree … when it came to prevailing views with which he agreed, he [Aristotle] never mentioned the author.’

Thus the original argument is turned on its head: Aristotle’s very silence meant – if anything – more that he was for the existence of Atlantis than against it.”

My interest in Aristotle stems from the fact that he is constantly presented as the only classical writer to argue against the existence of Atlantis. A typical example is the comments of David Hatcher Childress who describes^[⁶²⁰^.141]Aristotle as sceptical on many matters and that as well as doubting the reality of Atlantis he also appears to have questioned the veracity of Homer’s Trojan War when Strabo quotes Aristotle as saying that the Greek wall of Troy may never have been built but “invented and then demolished by the poet” (Geography XIII.i.36:).

However, Thorwald C. Franke‘s book, now published in English, persuasively disputes this commonly held view that Aristotle did not accept the existence of Atlantis. He points out that the alleged critical comment did not come directly from the writings of Aristotle but from a quotation attributed to Aristotle by Strabo (Geog. II 102). Franke has traced the use of this text as a dismissal of the existence of Atlantis by Aristotle back to 1816 when the French astronomer and mathematician Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre (1749-1822) misinterpreted the commentary on Strabo’s Geographica by Isaac Casaubon in 1587.

Franke has recently augmented his book with a YouTube video, in English^(d) and German^(e).

Franke points out that a study of more than twenty passages from Aristotle’s writings relating to Atlantis reveals that he was inclined to accept the Atlantis story as true since he accepted many of its details without expressing any doubt about the core of it.

Jean Baptiste d’Anville (1697-1782) was a highly regarded geographer and cartographer, and also an Atlantis sceptic. However, as Franke has pointed d’Anville accepted that Aristotle believed in the existence of Atlantis^[880.83].

In May 2016, there was held at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, in ancient Stagira and in ancient Mieza, an international conference ‘Aristotle 2400 Years’ at which it was claimed^(a) that Aristotle’s long-lost tomb had been discovered at Stagira, his birthplace. Understandably, this generated an immediate critical response^(b).

Aristotle like others of his era is still highly regarded as a philosopher, but unfortunately, it took over a millennium before Ibn al-Haytham developed the concept of experimental data and the reproducibility of its results. On the other hand, Aristotle is not an ideal mentor regarding many subjects outside philosophy.

He was happy to justify slavery, as was Athenian society in general.

Aristotle was also a biologist whose work amazed Darwin when William Ogle sent him a copy of The Parts of Animals^[¹³¹⁷^] which he had translated. Now in The Lagoon^[¹³¹⁸^], a modern biologist, Armand Marie Leroi, reveals more of Aristotle’s wide-ranging scientific investigations and his conclusions, not all of which were correct^(c).

^(a) https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/breaking-news-archaeologists-claim-have-found-long-lost-tomb-aristotle-020849?nopaging=1

^(b)https://www.livescience.com/54923-archaeologists-doubt-aristotle-tomb-discovery.html

^(c)Book: The Lagoon – Cosmos Magazine (archive.org)

^(d) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inWb6IVNWFQ (English)

^(e) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDG7a09xkZE (German)

Tagged Aristotle, Armand Marie Leroi, Charles Dawwin, David Hatcher Childress, Diogenes Laertius, Homer, Ibn al-Haytham, Ingemar Düring, Isaac Casaubon, James R. Smith, Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre, John Michael Greer, Katherine Folliot, Plato, Socrates, Stagira, Strabo, Thorwald Franke, Trojan War, William Ogle

Franke, Thorwald C.

Published May 21, 2010

Thorwald C. Franke was born in 1971 in Konstanz in southwest Germany. He studied computer science at the University of Karlsruhe and now works as a software developer. Since 1999 he has been promoting the idea of Atlantis having been located in Sicily. He has written a paper, which makes the case for identifying Atlas with king Italos of the Sicels, who was one of the first tribes to inhabit Sicily and gave their name to the island.

In October 2010, Franke announced that a part of his theory has some elements in it that require further research^(f).

He believes that the war with the Atlanteans was recorded by the Egyptians as the conflict with the Sea Peoples of whom the Sicilians are generally accepted to have been part.

Franke has a well-presented website⁽^a⁾, in English and German, where he cogently outlines his views. He has also written a lengthy, 23-page paper on the need for a classification of Atlantis theories. Even though this item is in German, English readers may find it quite interesting using their browser’s translator. Franke has also compiled an extensive list of Atlantis-related websites^(d)that he expanded further in a new format in October 2011.

His paper for the 2^nd Atlantis Conference in Athens in 2008 is available on the Internet^(c) in which he expanded on his Sicilian location for Atlantis.

Franke has also published a book, in German^[³⁰⁰^] that focussed on Herodotus’ contribution to the Atlantis question^(p). In the same paper, he dealt with the true meaning of the word ‘meizon‘ in Timaeus 24e which tells us that Atlantis was ‘greater’ than Asia and Libya combined, which he clarified as actually referring to their combined power rather than size. However, Franke proposed that the Egyptian word ‘wr’, whose primary meaning is ‘big’ and is sometimes used in a metaphorical sense, may have influenced the wording of the Greek text

Then in a more recent (2010) book^[706]regarding Aristotle and Atlantis, he disputes the generally perceived view that Aristotle did not accept the existence of Atlantis. He builds his case on an 1816 misinterpretation by a French mathematician, Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre, of a 1587 commentary on Strabo’s Geographica by Isaac Casaubon. Combined with other evidence he has presented a case that removes the only prominent classical writer alleged to have dismissed the existence of Atlantis. In late 2012 Franke published an English translation with the title of Aristotle and Atlantis^[880]. Franke’s views regarding Aristotle have been well received and his book is frequently cited, most recently by Dhani Irwanto in his Atlantis: The Lost City is in the Java Sea^[1093.110].

Franke has now augmented his book on Aristotle with a YouTube video in English^(l) and German^(m). This important book can now be read on the Researchgate website.^(ae)

2012 also saw the publication, by Franke, of the first English translation of Gunnar Rudberg’s 1917 monograph Atlantis och Syrakusai, now Atlantis and Syracuse^[881]. This is a welcome addition to Atlantis literature in English. Students of the Atlantis mystery owe a debt of gratitude to Herr Franke.

In 2006, Franke published a paper outlining Wilhelm Brandenstein’s contribution to Atlantology which in 2013 he published in English^(g). This was followed by a translation^(h) of his overview of the work of Massimo Pallattino, who had adopted some of Brandenstein’s approaches to the Atlantis question.

On the 30th of May 2013, Franke announced⁽ⁱ⁾ that his Atlantis Newsletter, which until now was only available in German, in future will also be published in English. Today he discusses the antics of extremist Atlantis sceptics and the abuse of Wikipedia. I encourage everyone to register and congratulate Thorwald on this development.

There is also a video clip available of Franke showing his library of Atlantis-related books^(e). 2017 has seen Franke produce a number of 30-minute videos, which readers will find informative. They are available in both German and English, (Just Google Plato’s Atlantis – Thorwald C. Franke – YouTube).

Franke has now (July 2013) revamped his website (https://www.atlantis-scout.de/)

More recently, July 2016 saw the publication, in German, of Kritische Geschichte der Meinungen und Hypothesen zu Platons Atlantis^[¹²⁵⁵^] (Critical history of the hypotheses on Plato’s Atlantis). This tome of nearly 600 pages will undoubtedly be a valuable addition to any serious researcher’s library. There is a promotional video, in German, to go with it^(j). Hopefully, an English translation of the book will follow. However, Franke does provide an English summary of the book^(af). In June 2021, Franke announced the publication of the second edition of this remarkable book, but again, in German only. It is now in two volumes, totalling over 800 pages, which include hundreds of new references^(y). Two publications in one week is a record to be proud of.

In June 2018, Franke published a YouTube video in English^(r) and German^(s) highlighting how Plato’s 9,000 years have been alternatively accepted and then rejected many times over since the time of Plato. Franke proposes that the 9,000 years recorded by Plato were comparable with the accepted age of Egypt in his day, at 11,00 years. However, archaeology has demonstrated that Egypt was only 3,000 years old or less when Plato was alive, suggesting that the 9,000 should be reduced by a comparable amount to arrive at the real-time of Atlantis.

In his Newsletter No.90, Franke has highlighted that a small German right-wing group, ‘Pro Deutschland’, has cited on their website the ‘superior civilisation’ of Atlantis in support of their extremist views.

Franke’s Newsletter No. 103 has now provided us with five parallel versions of the Atlantis texts⁽ⁿ⁾, Two English; Jowett & Bury and Two German; Susemihl & Müller as well as a Greek text from the Scottish classicist John Burnet (1863 – 1928)^[1492].

Franke’s Newsletter No.104 offers an overview of the difficulties involved in accepting Plato’s writings too literally^(o). He gives particular attention to the 9,000 years claimed to have elapsed between the Atlantean War and Solon’s visit to Egypt.

In November 2017, Franke published an uncompromising critique^(q) of Stephen P. Kershaw’s recent book, A Brief History of Atlantis^[1410].

Franke has now published two new videos^(t⁾, in both German and English, in which he reviews a number of Atlantis-related books, both supportive and sceptical. He does so in his usual balanced manner and also exhorts students of Atlantology to learn German to have access to important works only available in that language.

The difficulty of independent researchers getting their work published in academic journals was highlighted by Franke some time ago⁽^a⁾. However, he has had some academic recognition⁽^a⁾ and has modified his view on the function of the academic press vis-á-vis independent writers⁽^a⁾.

>>An interesting paper by Franke entitled The Dark Side of Atlantis Scepticism⁽^aq⁾ was published in 2021, which outlines how scepticism has been used to promote such diverse subjects as false religious and political dogmas.<<

In June 2021, Franke announced the publication of his latest book^(x⁾. Platonische Mythen (Platonic Myths)^[1858], currently in German only. In May 2022 a favourable review, also in German, of Franke’s book was published on the atlantisforschung.de website^(ag). I have archived an English translation in atlantipedia.ie^(ah).

The following month, Franke published Newsletter No.175 in which he accuses the Bryn Mawr Classical Review (BMCR) of scientific bias and inconsistency^(z). The full Newsletter should be read but in particular his conclusions below.

“Let us sum up what we have: BMCR claims to accept no self-published books, but it did review such a book [mine-AO’C]. BMCR claims that it accepts only peer-reviewed books, but besides the question, of what this exactly means, they do indeed review books that were not peer-reviewed. BMCR claims to accept translations but did not accept the translation of Gunnar Rudberg [Franke’s]. BMCR claims to review bad Atlantis books of a certain intelligence in order to debunk them, but at the same time, they avoided a review of a bad book by an Atlantis sceptical Oxford scholar. They claim to treat every author with respect but failed to do so in my case, and not only once. And the same scholar who admits that his scientific view was impacted (!) by one of my books writes BMCR reviews about other Atlantis books, but my books are not reviewed. Long story short: BMCR acts in an arbitrary way and damages its credibility. They screwed up everything that can be screwed up. And it was not me who lead them up the garden path. They did that all by themselves.”

In Franke’s Newsletter No.158 published in early 2021, he reviewed a lecture, previously unknown to him, given by Heinz-Günther Nesselrath, in Bologna, a few years ago⁽^aa⁾ during which he apparently misrepresented Franke’s Atlantis theories. Shortly afterward Nesselrath issued a rather intemperate reply to Franke’s criticisms.⁽^ab⁾ A further document(ac) from Franke detailed his continuing annoyance with what he perceives as ‘a breach of trust’ on the part of Nesselrath. Now in August 2021, Nesselrath has reignited matters again with a further assault on Franke’s views⁽^ad⁾, many of which I share. In a further postscript dated 20.08.21⁽^ab⁾ Franke fired off a few more salvos. I think it’s time for an armistice?

However, in April 2023, Franke issued his Newsletter No. 212⁽^ao⁾, with the following introduction;

“Professor Heinz-Günther Nesselrath has once again written and published two PDF articles⁽^ak)(al⁾ to defend his Atlantis scepticism against the arguments brought up by me. One is directed against my internet article “The Dark Side of Atlantis Scepticism” from 2021, based on my book about the reception history of Plato’s Atlantis story from 2016/2021. The other one makes the attempt to undermine especially the literary arguments of Wilhelm Brandenstein, which I cultivated and will cultivate even more in my next publication.”

Franke responded with two papers⁽^am)(an⁾ that should be read in their entirety.

Franke’s Newsletter #193 reviews an interview with sceptic Flint Dibble⁽^ai⁾. He followed that in July 2022 (#194) with a critique of an article ‘Not Exactly Atlantis’ by Professor Carolina López-Ruiz that Franke identifies as over-dependent on the arguments of promoters of the ‘invention hypothesis’ particularly those of Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Diskin Clay. Franke then proceeded to offer a list of her many errors⁽^aj⁾.

>In January 2024, Franke published his Newsletter #215⁽^ao⁾ where he references a 2023 Graham Hancock lecture⁽^ap⁾ in which “He just takes the numbers in Plato’s text literally, and on this basis he makes his conclusions and calculations. He never asks the question, not for a second, that Plato’s numbers could be wrong. Wrong in a very typical and understandable way, when looking to the historical context. Because, all the ancient Greeks were wrong about the age of Egypt (where the Atlantis story allegedly, or really, had come from). They thought, Egypt was 10,000 years old, and older. But in fact, Egypt was founded only around 3,000 BC. Therefore, if an ancient Greek text points to an event 9,000 years before its time, of which it got to know from Egypt, this means in fact a time after 3,000 BC.

Once you realize this, the whole narrative of a prehistorical Ice Age civilization melts down to nothing, and a completely different picture of the Atlantis question appears.<

⁽^a⁾ http://www.thorwalds-internetseiten.de

^(c) https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_sicily.htm

^(d)https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlanlinks.htm

^(e) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r2yDLEYfjA

^(f) https://www.atlantis-scout.de/index_engl.htm

^(g) https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_brandenstein_engl.htm

^(h) https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_pallottino_engl.htm

⁽ⁱ⁾ https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_newsl_archive.htm

^(j) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1orj7aqdTo

^(k) https://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlantis_newsl_archive.htm

^(l) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inWb6IVNWFQ (English)

^(m) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDG7a09xkZE (German)