David Wilcock
Wilcock, David
David Wilcock (1963- ) is best known, particularly in the United States, as a producer of The History Channel’s ‘eccentric’ Ancient Aliens TV series, which is appropriate as Wilcock appears to be rather eccentric himself. There is a report that Wilcock claimed to be the reincarnation of Edgar Cayce and wished to have a position in A.R.E., where he would also offering ‘readings’. He was questioned by Cayce’s son and grandson “for a little over an hour and quickly realized that he couldn’t answer a single question. They felt he was full of crap within minutes but to give him a fair chance they entertained him by asking him the questions that Cayce prepared while still alive to test the people who would come forward claiming to be his reincarnation.”(a)
Wilcock’s Atlantis theories are equally bizarre offering a cocktail of Edgar Cayce mixed with Erich Von Däniken blended with Graham Hancock and an added pinch of Rand Flem-Ath(b). This enable him to weave the ‘Atlantis in Antarctica‘ story into his twisted idea that the world is controlled by a cabal of evil alien and human conspirators.
(a) https://www.quora.com/Is-David-Wilcock-really-the-reincarnation-of-Edgar-Cayce
(b) https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/atlantida_mu/esp_atlanteanheritage.htm
Cayce, Edgar
Edgar Cayce (1877-1945) was born in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. He was reared as a Christian and even taught at Sunday school. He considered becoming a minister, but a lack of both education and funds prevented him from taking this course. The story goes that at the age of around 20, Cayce (pronounced KC) lost his voice and through self-hypnosis cured himself. He eventually found that he could cure others while in a trance and eventually his fame spread to such an extent that he was reported in the New York Times on 9th October 1910.
In due course, Cayce’s trances were producing prophetic utterances or ‘readings’, that produced ideas totally at variance with his Christian upbringing, such as reincarnation and contact with the dead. During his lifetime over 14,000 ‘readings’ were recorded. In 1931 the Association for Research and Enlightenment (A.R.E.) was founded by Cayce to manage a depository of his ‘readings’. Cayce also claimed to be the reincarnation of an ancient Egyptian priest Ra-Ta!
Towards the end of 1944, Cayce became very ill and on New Year’s Day, 1945 he ‘prophesied’ that he would be miraculously healed of his illness. He died three days later. Arguably, an even more disappointing prognostication was his claim that Jesus Christ would come again in 1998. The Cayce Petroleum Company was another failure in the 1920s when Cayce and his associates unsuccessfully searched for the ‘Mother Pool’ of oil in Texas based on some of his ‘readings’.
Robert Bauval in his Secret Chamber[859] reveals that Cayce seemed to have had a photographic memory and worked for up to fifteen years in a bookstore in Bowling Green, Kentucky, where, no doubt, he had access to the works of Donnelly, Steiner, Blavatsky and others[p158]. Over many years, his readings have frequently employed terminology and phrases from identifiable theosophical and other sources, a fact that cannot be ignored. David Bell wrote his Ph.D. dissertation, Edgar Cayce’s Bookshelf, on the sources that influenced his ‘readings’(n).
His Reading 364-1(e) reveals quite clearly that he was acquainted with theosophical literature as well as other works of fiction such as A Dweller on Two Planets. It is, therefore, a clear possibility that this familiarity may have influenced his subconscious and his later prognostications.
Some of those ‘readings’ related to Atlantis and have been published in various books and websites, while a separate volume, Edgar Cayce on Atlantis [0917] by his youngest son Edgar Evans Cayce contains all relevant utterances. The entire book is now available online(l).
He is most famously known for his claim that Atlantis would rise again in 1968 or 1969. Dr Mason Valentine discovered the so-called Bimini Road. A suggestion that this underwater feature had been known to members of A.R.E., years before its ‘discovery’, has been made by Picknett & Prince in The Stargate Conspiracy[705].
John Gribbin, the British science writer has imaginatively suggested[1029.91] that “if Cayce was indeed perceiving the future during his psychic trance, what he ‘received’ was a distorted version of the newspaper accounts of this story, which he duly reported in his own words in 1940.” On a more scientific note Gribbin explains (p.93) that “we can say beyond that Atlantis will not rise again from the Atlantic floor – there is no continental crust there to rise”.
K. Paul Johnson has written Edgar Cayce in Context[690], a well-balanced book that investigates in detail Cayce and his prognostications. In 1922, Cayce gave a lecture to the Birmingham Theosophical Society. Johnson relates how one Arthur Lammers, a theosophist, stayed with Cayce in 1923 for several weeks, during which sojourn, it appears that Theosophy was extensively discussed. Around the same time, Cayce was developing a friendship with one Morton Blumenthal, also an ardent theosophist. Coincidentally, it was in 1923 that some of Cayce’s ‘readings’ began to display great similarities with some of the views expressed in Madame Blavatsky’s ‘revelations’. A further interesting fact is that Alexander Strath-Gordon met Edgar Cayce on a number of occasions in the 1920s prompting speculation that he may have ‘influenced’ some of Cayce’s Atlantis readings, an idea that must be considered a possibility.
Cayce added that the Atlanteans discovered electricity and also had ships and aircraft powered by a mysterious form of energy crystal. He tells us that these flying machines were made of elephant skins! (Reading 364-6)(f) and that they could also travel through water!
With all this technology at their disposal, it is incredible that they could have lost a war with anyone, particularly the relatively primitive Athenians. The 17th-century fictional work of Sir Francis Bacon, The New Atlantis, contains many references to advanced technology not realised until the last century. An encounter with this widely available work could easily have coloured any ‘readings’ while in a trance. Therefore, it would appear that there is sufficient evidence to suggest the possibility of ‘contamination’ of Cayce’s subconscious to throw doubt on the possible value of any of his ’readings’, without impugning the honesty of Edgar Cayce himself. Since the much-quoted prophecy of ‘Atlantis rising’ in the late ’60s is quite possibly the result of such contamination, it cannot be considered as evidence of anything. The Bimini Road itself is still the subject of controversy. He also told us that China would be Christianised by 1968!
Cayce was also wrong regarding other historical details(d), such as the date of the biblical Exodus, which he declared to be 5500 BC (reading 470-22)(g), an error of about 4,000 years!
William B. Stoecker has written an article, which is highly critical of Cayce’s work(b). Nevertheless, it must be conceded that in one respect Cayce did offer one remarkable suggestion which claims that the Atlantean survivors fled to a number of locations (i) The Pyrenees – Home to the Basques (ii) Morocco – Berber country (iii) Egypt and (iv) North America – forming the Iroquois Nation. Coincidentally, the Berbers, Basques and Iroquois all share a specific DNA type(a).
In 2001, A.R.E. published Edgar Cayce’s Atlantis and Lemuria [106] by Frank Joseph. In turn, William Hutton wrote a review of Cayce’s offering, in which he concluded that “The foregoing review, while not comprehensive, shows that there is enough material in the book that is contentious, confusing or downright erroneous that almost anyone familiar with the relevant Cayce readings is prompted to ask, ‘How did this book come to be printed under the A.R.E.’s imprimatur?’ Why wasn’t the manuscript sent out to one or more competent reviewers for critical evaluation prior to being edited?”
Unfortunately, Plato is hardly mentioned at all by Cayce except for a brief reference to “the few lines given by Plato.” (Reading 364-1)(g).
Michael Mandeville published three volumes on the life and work of Cayce. He calculated that Cayce’s accuracy is consistently within an 85%-92% range. In an article published in Atlantis Rising magazine(m), he is quoted to have said that “Given the general accuracy of Cayce’s statements and the decisiveness with which his scenario for the period can be shown to be on target there is little reason to doubt that a catastrophic shift (25-27 degrees) in the location of the poles will occur during the period 2000-2001. I personally believe it will most likely occur in the year 2009.” Now (2022), many uneventful years later I think a comment is unnecessary.
James Randi in an excerpt(o) from his 1979 book Flim-Flam offers a debunking of Cayce that should be read by all open-minded people.>Jason Colavito has been a constant critic of Cayce’s irrational utterances(p). In August 2023, Colavito felt obliged to resume his critique of Cayce’s work following the showing of S19E15 of the American Ancient Aliens TV series. Understandably, Colavito is completely unimpressed by both Cayce and the Ancient Aliens production, describing the latter as a series from which “fortunately, no one has to worry about any truth coming out lt”(q).<
There is also the report that David Wilcock, the conspiracy theorist, claimed to be the reincarnation of Edgar Cayce and wished to have a position in A.R.E., where he would also offer ‘readings’. He was questioned by Cayce’s son and grandson “for a little over an hour and quickly realized that he couldn’t answer a single question. They felt he was full of crap within minutes but to give him a fair chance they entertained him by asking him the questions that Cayce prepared while still alive to test the people who would come forward claiming to be his reincarnation.”(i) This daft idea was given further promotion by Wynn Free in The Reincarnation of Edgar Cayce. [1678], which was written with Wilcock.
Another communication with the deceased Cayce is claimed by Leonard Farra(j). Forty years ago, in an article in Nature magazine Eugene A. Shinn and Marshall McKusick described Cayce followers as members of ‘a cult’!(k)
(a) Evidence of Atlantis (archive.org)
(b) https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/column.php?id=177247
(c) See: https://christophervolpe.blogspot.ie/2010/09/imagining-atlantis.html#links
(d) See: https://web.archive.org/web/20160926210640/https://talc.site88.net/intro.htm
(e) https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_cayce_3.htm
(f) https://phantho.de/files/html/reading__364-6.htm
(g) See: Archive 2913
(h) https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_cayce_3.htm
(i) https://www.quora.com/Is-David-Wilcock-really-the-reincarnation-of-Edgar-Cayce
(k) https://www.academia.edu/12724731/Bahamian_Atlantis_reconsidered
(l) https://www.theosophy.world/sites/default/files/ebooks/edgar_cayce_on_atlantis_1988.pdf
(m) Atlantis Rising magazine #22 p.25 http://www.pdfarchive.info/index.php?pages/At
(n) https://www.proquest.com/openview/d2a0a6fa9f13b7a809553ebc09a8eea7/1?cbl=18750&diss=y&pq-origsite=gscholar [Edgar Cayce’s Bookshelf]
(o) https://skepticalinquirer.org/1979/10/edgar-cayce-the-slipping-prophet/
(p) https://www.jasoncolavito.com/apps/search?q=Edgar+Cayce *
(q) Review of Ancient Aliens S19E15: “Edgar Cayce: The Sleeping Prophet” – JASON COLAVITO *
Hall, Manly Palmer
Manly Palmer Hall (1901-1990) was Canadian born before being brought to the United States by his grandmother, where he developed a lifelong fascination with religion, philosophy and science. He was a 33rd degree mason and in 1934 founded the Philosophical Research Society. He lectured widely and was the author of over two hundred works on a variety of subjects such as Alchemy, Tarot, The Bible and Freemasonry. In 1940 he produced a booklet[359]+ on Atlantis that is still in print today. In it, he claims that Masonry came to Egypt and Asia Minor from Atlantis and was originally concerned with sun and fire worship.
>>David Wilcock devoted a chapter of Atlantean Heritage to Hall(a)(b).<<
[359]+ https://www.scribd.com/doc/232071184/Manly-P-Hall-Atlantis-An-Interpretation
(a) The Manly P. Hall Archive » Manly P. Hall and the “Mysteries”
Antarctica *
Antarctica takes its name from the Greek Anti Arktos, which means opposite the Arctic. Edward Bransfield, an Irishman, led an expedition that discovered the northwestern shore of the Antarctic’s peninsula in January 1820(af), just three days after a Russian expedition found what was later to be known as the Fimbul Ice Shelf. However, a recent study suggests that an earlier discovery took place over a thousand years before that by Polynesians(ai).
The earliest literary reference to a city in Antarctica seems to have come from the pen of Edgar Allan Poe in his only full novel, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym’ (z). The idea of an Antarctic civilisation was also part of another novel, A Strange Manuscript Found in a Copper Cylinder[1532], by the Canadian author, James De Mille (1833-1880), published posthumously in 1888. In 1897, Jules Verne published An Antarctic Mystery(ab), which has been described as a response to Poe’s novel.
The earliest media claim of an Antarctic location, that I have found, is in The Boston Sunday Globe of April 11 1897, which regaled its readers with the following headline – “Mouse Reveals Atlantis”. It tells the story of a small marsupial discovered in South America related to an Australian species. The ‘experts’ of the day decided that this could only be explained by a landbridge linking the two landmasses. “A direct line joining Australia with Patagonia runs through the South Pole. In all probability, then, our new-found Atlantis must have been an Antarctic continent.” If you fail to see the logic in this, you are not alone.ca).
Antarctica first entered the Atlantis debate as far back as 1923 when René-Maurice Gattefossé maintained that Atlantis had been located in the Atlantic and culturally influenced by an even earlier civilisation that had existed on Antarctica. In the same year another Frenchman, Dominique Sévriat, published a novel with the backdrop of an Atlantean Antarctic. H.P. Lovecraft published a short novel in 1931, At the Mountains of Madness[1522], which also used an Antarctic – Atlantis link.
Many other exotic claims have been made relating to Antarctica including that it was a UFO base(i) and that a refuge for Hitler had been built there in an area that was known as Neuschwabenland(h). An even more astounding claim was made in the title of a recent book – Earth’s First Civilization, Antarctica, 55 Million B.C.(aj). Books like this lead me to question the wisdom of allowing unbridled free speech!
However, the earliest suggestion of Antarctica as the home of Atlantis seems to have come from a Chilean professor, Roberto Rengifo, who also proposed, in 1920, that Antarctica was the original home of modern man until a catastrophic pole shift forced migration northward into the Americas and eventually worldwide! According to R.V.Eissmann, Arthur Posnansky made a similar suggestion around the same time.
Half a century was to pass before Antarctica itself was again promoted as the probable site of Atlantis by Flavio Barbiero in his book[061] published in Italian.
Twenty years later Rand & Rose Flem-Ath[062], supported by a well-designed website(a), published a similar theory that received widespread exposure in the English-speaking world. Subsequently, Rand Flem-Ath co-authored with Colin Wilson a second book[063] that added more background to the theory. Colin Wilson has more recently abandoned his support for Antarctica, as he eventually found the idea of Atlantis based here waging war against Athens,14,000 km away, untenable and then transferred his support to Robert Sarmast’s idea of Cyprus as the location of Atlantis.
Andrew Collins is another writer who was initially attracted to the Antarctica hypothesis but eventually opted for Cuba as the location of Atlantis. He later wrote a brief refutation of the Antarctic theory(aa).
In 2005, Gernot L.Geise & Reinhard Prahl published Auf der Suche nach der Mutterkultur (In Search of the Mother Culture) [730], in which they also opted for Antarctica as the location of Atlantis.
In 2007, David Stewart Jnr., a prominent Mormon writer, offered support for Flem-Ath’s theory in an article on his scripture history website.
The Antarctic theory is dependent on the acceptance of a number of hotly debated fundamentals, among which are: earth crust displacement (Pole Shift), a 10,000 BC date for Atlantis, Posnansky’s dating of Tiahuanaco and a particular interpretation of the Piri Reis Map.
The late Robert Solàrion produced his own ‘pole shift’ theory of Polar Axial Displacement that he outlined on the website(ah). The Flem-Aths have cited the Solar Typhoon Hypothesis(y) of Jared Freedman in support of their Atlantis location theory. Nevertheless, I must point out that even if there had been some sort of Pole Shift, it does not prove that Antarctica had been home to Atlantis as it still conflicts dramatically with the geographical pointers offered by Plato.
An ice core, 3 km long, which was recently recovered from Antarctica, has shown a continuous record stretching back 740,000 years. This would appear to indicate that the region was never without ice cover during that period, fatally weakening the Flem-Ath theory of Plato’s Atlantis being in Antarctica. This argument is tackled in Appendix 6 of The Atlantis Blueprint.
Another author who claims that the Antarctic ice sheet is not more than 6,000 years old is the Australian archaeologist Peter ‘Mungo’ Jupp. He has expanded on his views in a DVD(d). His principal claim is that ice core data has been misinterpreted as it is based on a false assumption that there is a layer per year, while there is evidence that more than one layer has been created annually(e). He does not directly enter the Atlantis debate but the evidence he adduces to support his thesis is more usually employed to support the Atlantis in Antarctica viewpoint.
Two German writers, Fritz Nestke & Thomas Reimer, have also supported the idea of Atlantis in Antarctica with their own 1988 book[064]. Patrick Geryl & Gino Ratinckx have predicted[066] a catastrophic pole reversal in 2012 and are ‘certain’ that an earlier pole change resulted in Atlantis being situated under the ice of the South Pole.
The controversial Nigel Appleby in his Hall of the Gods[0076] expressed the view that there had been a previous worldwide civilisation and “that a major portion of this civilisation still remains practically intact beneath the ice of Antarctica.“
Although not directly connected to the Antarctic-Atlantis debate, the late French mariner Robert Argod has given us a fascinating book[065] that supports the idea that the Polynesians originated in Antarctica and that their influence is to be found further afield.
The French science-fiction writer, René Barjavel, used the Antarctic Atlantis location in his 1968 novel, La Nuit des temps.
Arguments against the idea of ‘Atlantis in Antarctica’, by Paul V. Heinrich, can be found on the Internet(c).
Those that still have the temerity to support the concept of an Antarctican Atlantis may find this recent (March 2013) image of the continent ice-free(f) published by Scientific American(f) interesting. An overview of the Antarctic Hypothesis published in July 2014(g) may be of use for anyone new to the idea.
2013 also saw the publication of The Three Ages of Atlantis[972] by Marin, Minella & Schievenin, in which they proposed the existence of three Atlantises, with the original Atlantis situated in Antarctica and destroyed 15,000 years ago!
Around the same time, there was a media report claiming the discovery of three pyramids in Antarctica! Naturally, the story did not stand up to scrutiny(k) and slowly melted away.
In 2015, Britt du Fournet published an extensive blog reviewing the range of Atlantis theories on offer. In conclusion, she found the Antarctic location the most credible(j). 2016 saw two French researchers, Jean Seimple(l) and Fabien Pardo(v) join the Antarctic Supporters Club and thrill us with the even more bizarre claim that an Antarctic Atlantis is ‘clearly’ indicated by the features and the dimensions in the Great Pyramid(r)!
Another ‘off the wall’ suggestion is that Atlantis = Aztlan = Antarctica’(t).
In June 2016, an anonymous article(m) also supporting the Atlantis in Antarctica idea was being recycled around the Internet. It trotted out the usual ambiguous ‘evidence’ – the Piri Reis and the Oronteus Finaeus maps, fine-grained sediments, ancients forests, combined with a huge dollop of speculation. The purveyors of this nonsense know that they will be long dead before the icecap melts, if ever, and the irrationality of their claims are finally exposed. Apart from that, an Antarctic location seriously conflicts with Plato’s description of Atlantis, which he describes as extending from Libya (North Africa) to central Italy.
Conspiracy theorist David Wilcock has managed to weave the Atlantis in Antarctica story into his twisted idea that the world is controlled by a cabal of evil aliens and human conspirators. Jason Colavito has highlighted that Wilcock has even tried to charge for his particular brand of male cow effluent(s). There is also the report that Wilcock claimed to be the reincarnation of Edgar Cayce and wished to have a position in A.R.E., where he would also be offering ‘readings’. He was questioned by Cayce’s son and grandson “for a little over an hour and quickly realized that he couldn’t answer a single question. They felt he was full of crap within minutes but to give him a fair chance they entertained him by asking him the questions that Cayce prepared while still alive to test the people who would come forward claiming to be his reincarnation.”(ae)
An overview, including a video, of the origins of Antarctica commencing when it was part of the Gondwana, the supercontinent, can be viewed online(n).
The British tabloid The Daily Star(o) and many others(q) offered further recycling of the Atlantis in the Antarctic theory in December 2016 in a pathetic attempt to breathe new life into it. One site(p) in particular, demonstrates its lack of research, describing this theory, with a near century-old pedigree, as the “newest” Atlantis location.
Further claims emerged in May 2017 that “some scientists think that they’ve found Atlantis, and it’s underneath Antarctica. They’ve discovered a series of gigantic structures buried underneath this South Pole ice cap”.(u) Fake News!
This recent flurry of media interest in Antarctica and Atlantis has been milked by attention-seeking ‘researchers’ such as Joseph P. Farrell, who went further and managed to tie it all in with flying saucers, Edgar Cayce and the Kennedy assassination(w)(x). Farrell has studied Patristics, which is concerned with the study of the early church Fathers and, in my opinion, he should have stuck with that subject.
As I have alluded to above, it seems to me that those who promote the daft idea of an Antarctic Atlantis, do so in the knowledge that the icecap there is unlikely to disappear within their lifetime, which might reveal evidence for or against the proposition. However, the most telling argument against this polar location is the nonsensical idea that any civilisation situated there would launch an attack on Athens and/or Egypt, situated over 14,000 km away. It was the realisation of this, however belatedly, by the late Colin Wilson that led him to withdraw his support for the Antarctic location.
My view on the subject is, that even if the controversial degree of axial shift advocated by the likes of the Flem-Aths was proven correct and then if the remains of an ancient civilisation were to be found in the Antarctic, it could not be the Atlantis of Plato which attacked Athens and Egypt, as they were 14,000 km away from Antarctica – not within what you could call an ‘easy striking distance’. I prefer to accept the words of Plato, who unambiguously noted on two occasions that Atlantean territory stretched from southern Italy to North Africa, providing more rational launching pads for attacks on Greece and Egypt.
Late February 2020 saw a further attempt to breathe life into the silly ‘Atlantis in Antarctica’ idea. An Indian commentator, Piyush Gupta, on seeing some anomalous features on Google Earth proceeded to link them to Plato’s Atlantis(ag). This impetuous suggestion leaves me wondering if unfettered free speech is such a good idea after all.
Also in 2020, Barbiero published A Frozen Civilisation: Atlantis in Antarctica [1746] and The Bible without Secrets [1745], both in English, which appear to be translations of earlier works. As an engineer, he takes a scientific approach to the question of Atlantis’ location and where necessary throws in a formula or two to support his thesis.
Shane Leach added his support to the idea of an Antarctic Atlantis in his 2023 Kindle book, Prehistory Explained [2007], in which he recycles many of the ideas of Charles Hapgood and Rand Flem-Ath. The entire book is contaminated with lots of nonsense about ancient astronauts á la Erich von Däniken, Zechariah Sitchin and Richard Hoagland.
(a) https://web.archive.org/web/20171115013204/https://www.flem-ath.com/nn
(c) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/atlantis.html
(d) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA73tcg5yYc
(e) Antarctica — Once a Tropical Paradise – The Thunderbolts Project™ (archive.org)
(f) https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-antarctica-looked-like/
(h) https://atlanteangardens.blogspot.ie/2014/05/antarctica-and-lost-land-of-thule.html
(i) https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/antarctica/antartica11.htm
(j) https://brittnearfm.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/atlantis-re-investigated-atlantis-defrosted/
(k) https://hubpages.com/education/Debunking-the-Pyramids-of-Antarctica-myth
(l) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spVVCMC8szM
(m) See (q)
(p) https://sputniknews.com/world/201612131048479535-theorists-say-atlantis-in-antarctica/
(q) Ancient Olmecs: Survivors of the city-continent of Atlantis (archive.org)
(r) https://www.poureuxlelivre.fr/welcome/atlantis Link broken see text only (English) at Archive 3287 | (atlantipedia.ie)
(t) Was Aztlan –the legendary ancestral home of the Aztec people—Atlantis? | Ancient Code (archive.org)
(u) Has The Location Of Atlantis Just Been Discovered? – LADbible (archive.org)
(v) Jean Seimple & Fabien Pardo – Hym.media (archive.org) (French) Slow loading
(x) See: https://www.darkjournalist.com/s-farrell19.php
(y) http://www.solartyphoon.com/default.htm
(z) https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/51060
(aa) https://www.andrewcollins.com/page/interactive/antartica.htm
(ab) https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10339
(ac) https://archive.org/details/mouserevealsatla00unse/page/n2
(ae) https://www.quora.com/Is-David-Wilcock-really-the-reincarnation-of-Edgar-Cayce
(af) https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2020/0126/1111022-edward-bransfield-explorer/
(ag) Antarctica’s Long Atlantis Has Been Located Through Google Images (archive.org)
(ah)http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cosmic_tree/atlantis.htm
(ai) Archive 6533 | (atlantipedia.ie)